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***SSNL CHEESE APRIL PT 1*** ***SSNL CHEESE APRIL PT 1***

04-06-2008 , 12:39 AM
I'd prob make it 26 and fold to a push
04-06-2008 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdom88
A good tag should def. not have a wide range for this button raise. Though he may anyway.
Hmm? I think it's good to isolate there with anything that can make remotely decent pairs which is a pretty huge range. They do occasionally fold for 5 more.
04-06-2008 , 12:54 AM
nazahl you do realize it's nl100 and not 200 right?

same Q for dire i guess, who so big 3bet?
04-06-2008 , 12:58 AM
ATTENTION ALL NEWBS!!!

GO TO TABLE LUCIDOR (25NL) ON STARS OR SEARCH TERRYSCHAIVO TO GET SOME LATE NIGHT 2P2 FUNATHON GOING WOOO

**** nevermind.

who wants to play a 25nl first, before i sit?
04-06-2008 , 01:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaby
nazahl you do realize it's nl100 and not 200 right?

same Q for dire i guess, who so big 3bet?
100 doesn't play much differently than 200 at all anymore imo. The only real difference is a smaller number of non-nit regulars and an increase in fish/donks. But for some situation where you have a guy who's likely a non-nit regular isolating two likely idiots, I think it's identical.
04-06-2008 , 01:16 AM
And I 3-bet large because I expect UTG to call a fair amount of the time in which case I'm shoving 100% of flops with 100% of my range. The large preflop raise helps maximize my preflop range advantage.
04-06-2008 , 01:18 AM
That's also the reason I think it's somewhat of a mistake to be raising stuff like 67s, or more generally anything that is not ahead of a fish's range, there.
04-06-2008 , 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUDIKULOUS
ATTENTION ALL NEWBS!!!

GO TO TABLE LUCIDOR (25NL) ON STARS OR SEARCH TERRYSCHAIVO TO GET SOME LATE NIGHT 2P2 FUNATHON GOING WOOO

**** nevermind.

who wants to play a 25nl first, before i sit?
wtf i coudnt find you
04-06-2008 , 01:19 AM
lol kaby guess u didnt read that thread

fwiw I've pretty much stopped just indiscriminantly 3betting preflop. I used to think like "okay, first hand at the table... CO tag open, I got AJs in the bb... I'm ahead of his range, hmm 3bet time"

especially when I first sit down at a table, I have no problem flatting everything I wanna play besides like TT+, AK until I get an idea of how someones playing (unless you have history of course, but even then its prob best to just wait an orbit or two before you start getting out of line).

I dont wanna get into everything discussed in that thread b/c I think each side made some valid arguments but overall I think the thing you want to avoid is having a "set" range for 3betting in that spot
04-06-2008 , 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ofishstix
wtf i coudnt find you
i want to see who wants to play first so a bunch of 25nl donkies dont sit with me before everyone else.
04-06-2008 , 01:22 AM
Seriously, WTF. Sit down at Cake 3/6 HU cuz I'm bored and playing only 3 tables on other sites. Donk sits with 300. Hour later he's got maybe like 700, annoying, but whatever. Maybe 20 minutes later he has 6.2k. Awesome. That was really really cool. 3.5 Hours later, I'm back at 4.4k and he insta leaves.

The WTF kill me now I want to call cuz screw you hand though - I raise to 30 straight on button, he calls. 9cTc3h flop. he checks calls pot. Turn Ah, he checks calls pot, river 8h, he shoves for 2.5k and I'm like, why? BE A BLANK 8 FFS!

Worst loss of 2k and 4 hours of my life ever :/
04-06-2008 , 01:23 AM
nit
04-06-2008 , 01:52 AM
that's why I hate HU and actually will have to implement a stop loss when i do play it
04-06-2008 , 01:55 AM
shake that laffy taffy, that laffy taffy gurl
04-06-2008 , 01:56 AM
Oi hi,
welcome to doucheland
04-06-2008 , 02:07 AM
thanks cor, i think i might as well ship u ur box of beer now, ur gonna win imo
04-06-2008 , 02:16 AM
die
04-06-2008 , 02:18 AM
ONLY IF U SHAKE THAT LAFFY TAFFY GURL
04-06-2008 , 02:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
I don't believe I confused the terms anywhere. I was just assuming play against an unknown player. Eg - you don't know beforehand that he is only playing rock, rock, rock, rock.. so the GTO solution would just be unexploitable play. And I think GTO most often does come down to unexploitable when applied in any real life scenario which is what really makes me question it's value for poker (again outside of much more basic but related conceptions like range balancing).
whoops, you're right. i wrote most of my arguments in this tread thinking that both players knew what strategies the other were employing. if you have no idea, then starting with 'unexploitable play' is best. kotkis stated a while ago something like 'i try my best to exploit my opponents mistakes, but I often don't know what they are,'
04-06-2008 , 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquadougs
Hypotetical: You have played 100k hands vs a good player. He plays "unexploitable" and you have played "unexploitable". What if we decides to change our bluffing frequencies, without saying it to him? He have to observe for a while to determine that we have changed them. When we know he will adjust to that, to play optimally against us, wont it be optimal to change our bluffing% back while he adjusts?
The whole beauty of unexploitable strategy from a GT perspective is that it never loses. If villain is playing unexploitable and you aren't, you are going to lose. That's all there is too it. Now if he adjusts to your errors (in this case your changed bluffing frequencies) you're gonna lose more, but in a fair game there is simply no way to beat an unexploitable opponent.
04-06-2008 , 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquadougs
Is it true that the worse players we play against, the more "optimal" our play should be, rather than "unexploitable" to make most $?
Nope, your play should always be optimal first and foremost. However, the better players you play, the more that unexploitable and optimal converge naturally, hence its place on 2+2 and mostly in HSNL.
04-06-2008 , 04:28 AM
played 220 hands at 2/4 today. went to SD was 14%, won at SD was 40%. woot, ship the 600 bucks
04-06-2008 , 04:37 AM
now you're getting orange syndrome if you keep that up ae.

when in doubt, move up to chase losses. today -$1k at 1/2-2/4 but up like 2k at 5/10 $$$$
04-06-2008 , 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanta
when I say the 'BEST' our opponent can do is $5, I mean that the EV of a GT optimal counterstrategy is $5. The opponent simply can't do any better than optimal by definition.

my blurb there was written assuming we're playing against ivey/antonious/god and they play perfectly against our stragtegy. the strategy which allows our opponent to earn the least is our unexploitable strategy. my argument that strategy 2 is better than strategy 1 can fall apart if our opponent isn't playing the best they can (isn't exploiting us the best he can). This is where the optimal vs unexpoitable difference comes into play


well, optimal and GT optimal are the same thing, so I'm gonna assume you meant to write one playing optimal and one playing unexploitable :P. The thing is, optimal play against an unexploitable strategy is itself unexploitable strategy. so if antonious played god and they both played perfectly, then what would likely happen would be a constant shifting of optimal stragtigies and optimal counterstrategies (which you can see quite often at HSNL HU games) that will eventually damp out and wind up with both playing unexploitable. no one wins because they both play the same (except lee jones ldo)

i've always wanted to visualize a perfect HU match as a damped simple harmonic oscillation but i've just realized that it's not the best analogy in the world



ok thx for explanation. I'm a little confused by it all tbh
04-06-2008 , 06:11 AM
The thing with playing with perfect balance is that you don't win any money by doing it. I do spend a lot of time figuring out the balancing points for different situations, though, just so that I understand how much I have to let my opponents get away with, when I need to key up defense etc, or so that I can engage balanced EV neutral play in areas where my opponents play extremely well.

ps I'm not this smart. Really. Its Bryce quote from his well.

      
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