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Smart or Weak (0 NL) Smart or Weak (0 NL)

11-24-2008 , 11:29 PM
No read on the villain, but this was the hand he played in five deals. His opening into me from out of position was very worrisome, and altered my normal line here. Did I play this smart and keep the pot small, or was this just weak? And should I have made a value bet on the end instead of checking?

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $79.25
BB: $130.40
UTG: $19.15
MP: $44.15
Hero (CO): $101.35
BTN: $100.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is CO with Q A
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, SB calls $3, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($10.50) Q 7 3 (3 players)
SB bets $5.25, BB folds, Hero calls $5.25

Turn: ($21.00) 2 (2 players)
SB bets $10.50, Hero calls $10.50

River: ($42.00) K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
11-24-2008 , 11:32 PM
I just raise to 17$ and bet the turn 1/2 PS.
As played river is an easy valuebet imho, again 1/2 PS cause his range are most likely weakish holdings.
11-24-2008 , 11:33 PM
This is real bad, especially the river. What do you think he has that has you beat? You think he's checking 77 or KQ on the river?
11-24-2008 , 11:49 PM
I don't mind the call/call at all on this super dry flop against a complete unknown...

AS LONG AS YOU FREAKIN' BET THE RIVER!
11-25-2008 , 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerho
His opening into me from out of position was very worrisome, and altered my normal line here. Did I play this smart and keep the pot small, or was this just weak? And should I have made a value bet on the end instead of checking?
Oh... ouch. You should not have been worried about his "opening into you from out of position" or donkbet as it's more commonly referred to. This is basically always air or a weak made hand, nobody really ever plays a stronger made hand than AQ on this board this way (which would be pretty much just sets).

With your hand vs this opponent you want to get all the money in the middle. I'd be inclined to raise the turn small because it doesn't look he's gonna put a whole bunch more in after leading half pot twice. As played you should vbet the river... not too big, maybe half pot, as the river K is gonna scare his marginal Qx/7x hands some.
11-25-2008 , 12:21 AM
yea i agree with everyone else. I would raise flop most the time but when u just call u have to bet the river, u really do beat his whole range.
11-25-2008 , 06:07 AM
You want to raise the flop to protect the situations when you have to do the same with air. There is a very good chance this is the sort of player who donks a lot of flops so you will be in a similar spot against him many times in the session.
11-25-2008 , 03:22 PM
Interestingly of all the hands I've posted, this has been both the most educational and the most embarrasing.

My thought process was he has 7s or 3s, then when the river came, I thought "well people play AK like this, maybe I just called myself into losing a pot," so I checked. I think I tend to let the next card influence what I think he has when I should let his action influence what I think he has, and this is a pretty good example. Also, hand-reading is definietly a weakness for me, and despite determined efforts to improve it, I still play like this.

The guy flipped over 10 10.
11-25-2008 , 03:54 PM
The flop smooth call isn't bad on occasion, but i'm definately gonna be giving him the business on the turn hoping that he took my flop call as weak.
11-25-2008 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasane
I don't mind the call/call at all on this super dry flop against a complete unknown...

AS LONG AS YOU FREAKIN' BET THE RIVER!
yep
11-25-2008 , 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gball
You want to raise the flop to protect the situations when you have to do the same with air. There is a very good chance this is the sort of player who donks a lot of flops so you will be in a similar spot against him many times in the session.
how often are you raising this flop with air? what is calling you on the flop when you raise? having said that - when you raise with air - i think you will be floated a lot.

how often are you raising to mix it up when you have Q like OP?

i actually dont mind how he played it, except river is a bet
11-25-2008 , 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by higher_energy
how often are you raising this flop with air? what is calling you on the flop when you raise? having said that - when you raise with air - i think you will be floated a lot.

how often are you raising to mix it up when you have Q like OP?

i actually dont mind how he played it, except river is a bet
Donks donkbet the flop all the time, this is just what they do, and like Brian O'Nolan said, it's almost always air or a hand that can't take a lot of pressure. So I raise his donkbet with air probably 80% of the time, depending on villain, and usually get a fold. Of course you have to balance it by raising your made hands too, which is why I raise here -- more for image/range-balancing than because I have the best hand.

If my raises of a particular villain's donk-bets start getting called more often, I'll switch things up, but I think it's good to just put word out that when someone donk-bets the flop after my pf open, they should expect to be raised.
11-25-2008 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UbU
Donks donkbet the flop all the time, this is just what they do, and like Brian O'Nolan said, it's almost always air or a hand that can't take a lot of pressure. So I raise his donkbet with air probably 80% of the time, depending on villain, and usually get a fold. Of course you have to balance it by raising your made hands too, which is why I raise here -- more for image/range-balancing than because I have the best hand.

If my raises of a particular villain's donk-bets start getting called more often, I'll switch things up, but I think it's good to just put word out that when someone donk-bets the flop after my pf open, they should expect to be raised.
lol at thinking donks think in ranges and what u do with specific hands
11-25-2008 , 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasane
I don't mind the call/call at all on this super dry flop against a complete unknown...

AS LONG AS YOU FREAKIN' BET THE RIVER!
This except the freakin
11-25-2008 , 07:09 PM
I don't generally argue much about optimal lines but i think theres much more value in the turn raise than a river bet. Dude talking about the donk bets correct, any street we raise or bet is prob gonna get a fold. I think the flop smooth call turn raise is by far our best chance though.
11-25-2008 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UbU
... Of course you have to balance it by raising your made hands too, which is why I raise here -- more for image/range-balancing than because I have the best hand.
Don't worry about image or balancing with an unknown. I used to think like this as well because it's damn good theory -- but not practice. They just don't care.

Image, balance... these are all levels that are absolutely wasted on a donk.
11-25-2008 , 07:57 PM
No need for potcontrol, just extract the max out of weaker holdings. I like calling the flop and raising the turn for value. If he's observant I like raising the flop as I do with my bluffs, because I expect to get floated a lot.

      
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