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really though spot deep NL200 with overpair QQ&OESD really though spot deep NL200 with overpair QQ&OESD

01-08-2008 , 08:53 PM
Villain is 40/8/2.7 over 140 hands. Playing generally pretty stupid.

Poker Stars $1.00/$2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

mrs.ari (BTN): $214.55
SuperJaz (SB): $245.20
Hero (BB): $303.15
swissdog (UTG): $741.50
Iron_curt (MP): $101.25
johnny79 (CO): $216.35

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with Q Q
swissdog raises to $6, 4 folds, Hero raises to $22, swissdog calls $16

Flop: ($45.00) 9 T 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $34, swissdog calls $34

Turn: ($113.00) J (2 players)
Hero checks, swissdog bets $84, Hero raises to $247.15 all in

Is this the correct play here? Why ??
01-08-2008 , 09:08 PM
I just C/C turn or fold as you probably won't get called with a 4 straight on the board.

I really don't like your turn C/R.

Just think of his likely calling range of a re-raise. For most players it's 99-QQ. Most 4 bet KK/AA, especially this deep. His most likely calling hands of the re-raise have all hit sets! If he made a loose call pf as you're deep with 77, that hit a set too, and 88 just made a straight!
01-08-2008 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleyC
I just C/C turn or fold as you probably won't get called with a 4 straight on the board.

I really don't like your turn C/R.

Just think of his likely calling range of a re-raise. For most players it's 99-QQ. Most 4 bet KK/AA, especially this deep. His most likely calling hands of the re-raise have all hit sets! If he made a loose call pf as you're deep with 77, that hit a set too, and 88 just made a straight!
And whats +EV in calling here? you have any idea how many scare cards i have to fold to on the river if i just check/call
01-08-2008 , 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruut99
And whats +EV in calling here? you have any idea how many scare cards i have to fold to on the river if i just check/call
Yep, the more I think about it, it's a turn fold. You beat nothing. If you call turn, you then c/f the river unimproved. IMO he has a set here alot, that's the reason I may be tempted to call turn so that I can overshove river and hope that he cant lay his set down on a 4 straight board.
01-08-2008 , 09:23 PM
Hell no! I like this.
01-08-2008 , 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazarath
Hell no! I like this.

Wtf calls flop - bets turn that doesnt crush him?
01-08-2008 , 09:59 PM
I'm check- folding the turn, for the reason above. No need to put it all in here with only your OESD and absolutely nothing that will call you that you have beat.
01-08-2008 , 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleyC
Wtf calls flop - bets turn that doesnt crush him?
"Villain is 40/8/2.7 over 140 hands. Playing generally pretty stupid."

Enough said. These types of villains are calling with any pair, any flush draw, AK-high, and yes, the straight draw as well. If we're not already ahead, we've got 7 outs at worse (I guess 7 outs to a chop if you want to include Q8 in his range). Against sets we have 10 outs, and against two pair we have 16 outs. No way I'm folding here.
01-09-2008 , 02:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazarath
These types of villains are calling with any pair, any flush draw, AK-high, and yes, the straight draw as well.
I don't think the villain will call the shove with such wide range. IMO when we are called, we are up against 2p, str8s, sets, and some FD. Our equity vs such range can't be more than 25-30% and I don't think our FE is big, if at all, given that he called the flop AND bet large on a very scary board. Also, what are you repping with your craise on turn? 8? KQ? AJ-AK of diamond? Aren't you more likely to just b/c than craise with these hands? Also unless you are a very light 3bettor, 8 is unlikely for you and the villain prob knows this.(Am I giving the fish too much credit?)
01-09-2008 , 02:56 AM
meh... c/c and c/r are about equal here really
01-09-2008 , 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
meh... c/c and c/r are about equal here really
As long as you agree that both are >>>>>>>>>>>>> folding, yeah.
01-09-2008 , 06:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anycall
I don't think the villain will call the shove with such wide range.
I was talking about calling the flop bet. He's not folding any of the hands I listed on the flop. On the turn, I personally think his range should be somewhat polarized towards air/draw or straight (if only slightly), as it's less likely he'll want to bet a hand like 97.

I would wager that a lot of crap hands like AT/A7/KT are calling this flop, that they make up a good chunk of his range, and all of those are definitely betting the turn. We should have fold equity against those, and if we don't, that's actually better for us. Against a range of sets/two pair/flush draws/straights, I get that our equity ranges anywhere from 20-50% (using PokerStove), depending on how heavily you weigh his range towards draws or straights.

Let's say he folds F percent of the time, and we have C equity when called.
(Someone please check my math to make sure it's correct.)
The pot is currently:
22 + 22 + 34 + 34 + 84 = 196 roughly
Then when he calls, our EV is:
EV(when called) = (196 + 163) * C - 247 * (1 - C)
= 359 * C - 247 + 247 * C
= 606 * C - 247
Obviously, when he folds:
EV(when folds) = 196
So to breakeven:
EV(when called) * (% called) + EV(when folds) * (% folds) = 0
(606 * C - 247) * (1 - F) + 196 * F = 0
Let's say C = 0.30:
(181.8 - 247) * (1 - F) + 196 * F = 0
-65.2 + 65.2 * F + 196 * F = 0
261.2 * F = 65.2
F = ~0.25 or 25%

This is using the assumption that we have 30% equity when called. If you stove ranges that contain flush draws or 1-pair type hands, then our equity is pretty damn good when called. It still seems like a clear shove to me.

      
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