QQ vs river shipity - Small Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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QQ vs river shipity

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03-09-2011 , 10:53 PM

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

hes 27/24/2.5 with 10% 3b from bttn

Merge, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #8154432

SB: $244.66 (122.3 bb)
BB: $600.20 (300.1 bb)
MP: $225.51 (112.8 bb)
Hero (CO): $202 (101 bb)
BTN: $334.86 (167.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

MP folds, Hero raises to $7, BTN raises to $24, 2 folds, Hero calls $17

Flop: ($51) 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $34, Hero calls $34

Turn: ($119) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($119) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $149.10, Hero folds

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Last edited by terp; 03-10-2011 at 12:21 AM. Reason: no...****ing...names

03-09-2011 , 11:04 PM

n4rf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 12,722

Id rather 4 bet pre but w/e i guess. As played i find it hard he would decide to bluff this river given his chance to bet the turn.

03-09-2011 , 11:52 PM

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

does he do this with AK/KQ or only A2 76 and 55? air?

03-09-2011 , 11:58 PM

NicReynolds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 10,540

Fist pump 4bet for value. Id prob valuebet river myself if you dont feel hel bluff with this line

03-10-2011 , 12:12 AM

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

he likes to do things like overbet shove the flop for no reason...

I also play alot with him and would like a balanced range for my cold calls oop to 3 bets.

If this was a LP steal vs him in the blinds Id 4 bet ship and be able to run into 88+ AQ/AK for the all in, bc hes awful.

Here, I think he is more polarized and less likely to spew.

I do like the lead river line though. I was planning on check calling...uggh.

Last edited by terp; 03-10-2011 at 12:22 AM.

03-10-2011 , 12:13 AM

Brian O'Nolan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6,499

Are we to assume that you don't have a 4bet range in this spot when you're flatting something as strong as QQ?

03-10-2011 , 12:14 AM

max86

banned

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 436

he doesnt have TP, i have had this scenario countless time vs him. He would bet it smaller.. he hit his set on the river.. 0 bluff there.

If no King on board he would bet smaller to get 100% value, now with King he hopes you have AK.

fold be happy and wait for the next time he does something rather silly like this:

03-10-2011 , 12:15 AM

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian O'Nolan

Are we to assume that you don't have a 4bet range in this spot when you're flatting something as strong as QQ?

Vs same player

Merge, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #8154682

MP: $228 (114 bb)
CO: $205.80 (102.9 bb)
BTN: $203.40 (101.7 bb)
Hero (SB): $206 (103 bb)
BB: $60 (30 bb)
UTG: $232.21 (116.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

2 folds, CO raises to $7, BTN folds, Hero raises to $27, BB folds, CO raises to $205.80 and is all-in, Hero calls $178.80

Flop: ($413.60) 8

(2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($413.60) 9

(2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($413.60) A

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

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Merge, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #8154692

MP: $284.83 (142.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $200 (100 bb)
: $402.87 (201.4 bb)
BTN: $402.62 (201.3 bb)
SB: $203.39 (101.7 bb)
BB: $248.75 (124.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T

MP folds, Hero raises to $7, folds, SB raises to $23, BB folds, Hero calls $16

Flop: ($48) 4

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($48) 2

(2 players)
SB bets $32, Hero calls $32

River: ($112) J

(2 players)
SB bets $74.67, Hero calls $74.67

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03-10-2011 , 12:24 AM

Brian O'Nolan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6,499

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagame

Vs same player

Wat? How are those even close to analogous to the OP, other than that they are all 3 or 4 bet pots?

I mean, I dunno the guy, maybe it's true as you say he plays perfectly once you 4bet but spews like crazy if you just call. That just seems highly unlikely to me.

03-10-2011 , 12:30 AM

#10

MCHpow_pow

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,906

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagame

does he do this with AK/KQ or only A2 76 and 55? air?

A2, 67 and 55 are mostly barreling this turn unless he's got a read on you that says you never fold once you call the flop no matter what.

Shoving air is unlikely on the river because he'd be so likely to barrel it on such a great turn.

So yeah, My guess is he's got something great like KK that he decided to get tricky with (irony is that he'd probably more readily stack you if he simply bet the turn... or did you call the river anyway?)

03-10-2011 , 12:41 AM

#11

miserablee

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,910

so wait you think that the best way to combat someone that 3-bets a very polarized range here is to flat stuff OOP?

03-10-2011 , 02:14 AM

#12

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by miserablee

so wait you think that the best way to combat someone that 3-bets a very polarized range here is to flat stuff OOP?

If im flatting at all, and I for sure am bc hes so terrible postflop, I need a range that includes some strong hands.

He will fold everything I beat except prob AK if I 4 bet here I think. Maybe JJ? But thatd just be insane with no history in this spot.

He spews postflop epically and spews preflop somewhat, but only preflop out of the blinds or in a steal situation vs the blinds I *think*

03-10-2011 , 02:26 AM

#13

Blade99

banned

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 118

i really hate preflop.

just 4b/get it in, river fold is fine

03-10-2011 , 03:37 PM

#14

MalcolmX23

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,344

I 4bet pre. If you want to call sometimes to trap i would do it with KK+,
QQ is just to weak imo. As played i am c/r the flop to induce some spazz out and get it in now vs TT,JJ.

River looks a lot like a value line, so i fold there.

03-10-2011 , 03:46 PM

#15

miserablee

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,910

i guess the point is if he's legit 3-betting 10% and only getting maybe JJ+/AK in then just tighten your opening range a bit when he has the BTN and start 4-betting him relentlessly, it's likely going to show a lot more profit than letting him get to the flop with all of his 64s type stuff while being in position.

03-10-2011 , 04:15 PM

#16

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by miserablee

If I start doing this he will adjust I suppose and start shipping light. Then also perhaps he might 3 bet less which would be good and then I could start stealing more again...

03-10-2011 , 04:21 PM

#17

MalcolmX23

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,344

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagame

If I start doing this he will adjust I suppose and start shipping light. Then also perhaps he might 3 bet less which would be good and then I could start stealing more again...

Well you obviously have to balance your 4bet/bluff and 4bet/call range,
if you think that villain will adjust with 5bet bluff shoves(which wont always happen).

03-10-2011 , 10:28 PM

#18

max86

banned

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 436

Quote:

Originally Posted by miserablee

he doesnt..

in a 3hrs session last month i 4bet him twice from UTG vs his UTG1.. second time he 5bet shoved 9to into my KQo..

Playing this guy postflop is a lot better than playing like madmen PF

All those 'you have to adjust to his light 5bet, balance your 4bet corectly' is just an excuse not to play poker from weaker players..

Call oop and own the bad overaggro tard. or Stop opening when hes got position on you

03-10-2011 , 11:18 PM

#19

Gorvacofin

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by max86

If I saw someone ship ten high over my UTG 4-bet, the last thing I'd want to do is stop 4-betting.

03-11-2011 , 03:20 AM

#20

Brian O'Nolan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6,499

Quote:

Originally Posted by max86

in a 3hrs session last month i 4bet him twice from UTG vs his UTG1.. second time he 5bet shoved 9to into my KQo..

Playing this guy postflop is a lot better than playing like madmen PF

All those 'you have to adjust to his light 5bet, balance your 4bet corectly' is just an excuse not to play poker from weaker players..

Call oop and own the bad overaggro tard. or Stop opening when hes got position on you

Logic fail. You realize that the example you gave supports the point of view in opposition to your own, right? If you want to provide an example supporting flatting OOP, it should be villain doing something idiotic postflop.

03-11-2011 , 03:37 AM

#21

max86

banned

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 436

you realize that a few shove with hands that are 30-40% against yours hoping that you hold on while also getting a few coolers is a lot less EV than always seeing a flop vs a massive ****** who overvalues his hands and almost never bluffs?

03-11-2011 , 10:00 AM

#22

Gorvacofin

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by max86

If you can take a 60/40 edge immediately, that's far better than letting him see a flop with a 40% equity, position and the betting lead. If he folds all his non-premiums to your 4-bets, fine, call oop, but if you see him 5-betting junk, why on earth would you want to stop 4-betting your strong hands?

03-11-2011 , 10:01 AM

#23

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

Same opponent

Merge, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #8168892

SB: $198 (99 bb)
BB: $206 (103 bb)
Hero (UTG): $570.11 (285.1 bb)
MP: $291.80 (145.9 bb)
CO: $233.15 (116.6 bb)
BTN: $358.70 (179.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J

Hero calls $2, 2 folds, BTN raises to $9, 2 folds, Hero raises to $30, BTN calls $21

Flop: ($63) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($63) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $42, BTN calls $42

River: ($147) J

(2 players)
Hero bets $110.25, BTN raises to $286.70 and is all-in, Hero calls $176.45

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03-11-2011 , 10:07 AM

#24

kagame

veteran

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorvacofin

He will 3 bet small pocket pairs and weak suited connectors in position and always cbet and then play poorly after that imo.

The time to 4 bet "light" is when he resteals from the blinds, because he has hands like AT and not the small pairs and scs - ie is not at all polarized and will make god awful stackoffs preflop. I suppose slowplaying big pairs here is fine also sometimes, but I would rather have a nicely balanced range personally since he is so absurd with 88/AT+ getting it in.

I have not seen him empty the clip, but he overvalues made hands.

Any thoughts on something I could be missing here?

03-11-2011 , 10:39 AM

#25

Gorvacofin

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,657

I still think there are going to be too many scenarios where we end up checkfolding the best hand, paying off when we shouldn't, not getting stacks in postflop when we hit, not stacking a hand that would have shoved etc that taking the immediate edge and 4-betting our strong hands is usually better. If he's shown a propensity to get it in light pre (as Max86 said), it's hard to justify calling and yielding a positional disadvantage, even if he does suck postflop.

Just my opinion though, would be interested to see what others think

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