QQ vs. Cold 4bet - Small Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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QQ vs. Cold 4bet

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11-16-2007 , 01:46 AM

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

Villain is 2p2er ofishstix. 25/16/3 thru whatever. No history tonight or recently, first real pot we've played together in over an hour.

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $208.90
Hero (BTN): $251.65
SB: $53.65
BB: $533.75
UTG: $486.75

Pre-Flop: Q

dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, CO raises to $6, Hero raises to $22, SB folds, BB raises to $62, CO folds,

11-16-2007 , 01:48 AM

naaz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,067

ehh... I think I flat here and see what he does on the flop.

ur call is gonna look pretty strong to him

11-16-2007 , 01:52 AM

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

fwiw, because we're a bit deep, shoving is -EV if his calling range is KK+,AKo,AKs. Basically we've got 229 behind with a 90 dollar overlay which means we'd be getting 1.4:1 on a shove when he's calling. 1.4:1 requires approx. 42% equity and QQ has only 40% equity against that calling range.

So don't say shove, cause he's not calling JJ here.

11-16-2007 , 01:53 AM

tarheeljks

The Dark Knight

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 37,654

what has co been up to?

11-16-2007 , 01:54 AM

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

And if we call, we'll have about 190 left in an approx. 130 dollar pot, which means we can't fold non A/K flops in general.

11-16-2007 , 01:55 AM

naaz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,067

Quote:

And if we call, we'll have about 190 left in an approx. 130 dollar pot, which means we can't fold non A/K flops in general.

how often do you think he'll cbet after you cold call a 4bet? I mean if he doesnt have AA/KK, don't you think he's gotta be at least somewhat concerned you do? are you always 4betting AA/KK here?

11-16-2007 , 01:56 AM

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

Quote:

what has co been up to?

CO is also TAG, hates me

, but this is prob. the first time I've 3bet him. ofishstix prob. has me somewhere around 19/15.

11-16-2007 , 01:57 AM

scatt_man

adept

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 740

i would call here and then see what the flop brings ... i would have a hard time folding if the board was all unders but i have been getting owned in these situations recently as well

so maybe a fold pre may be best ...

11-16-2007 , 01:58 AM

scatt_man

adept

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 740

so if he checks flop are we betting ??? cause he may be just going for a c/r then we are definitely committed

11-16-2007 , 01:59 AM

#10

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

Quote:

And if we call, we'll have about 190 left in an approx. 130 dollar pot, which means we can't fold non A/K flops in general.

how often do you think he'll cbet after you cold call a 4bet? I mean if he doesnt have AA/KK, don't you think he's gotta be at least somewhat concerned you do? are you always 4betting AA/KK here?

I understand your point, but we're simply not deep enough, nor have a good enough read on how he would respond if I flat called to ever fold "good" flops. For all I know, he could of just lost 2 stacks on other tables and is tilted or flopped a pair with whatever rag hands he might 4bet with and just say [censored] it.

11-16-2007 , 02:00 AM

#11

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

Quote:

so if he checks flop are we betting ??? cause he may be just going for a c/r then we are definitely committed

We are definitely committed IF we call pf AND get a good flop.

11-16-2007 , 02:19 AM

#12

myke11

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 570

if he ever bluffs shoving is correct... im shoving

11-16-2007 , 02:26 AM

#13

sightless

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,988

is folding bad?

11-16-2007 , 02:28 AM

#14

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

319*.4 + .6*-229 = -9.8

x(90) + (1-x)(-9.8) = 0
x = ~10%

means he has to be bluffing > 10% to make shoving +EV.

If he's bluffing 20% of the time here, we stand to net ~$18 in EV.

I wish I could do a reasonable EV calculation for calling, but there are so many factors that I think it would be rather difficult.

11-16-2007 , 02:30 AM

#15

naaz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,067

Quote:

319*.4 + .6*-229 = -9.8

whered u get the 40% and 60%?

11-16-2007 , 02:32 AM

#16

jk3a

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,305

Quote:

319*.4 + .6*-229 = -9.8

whered u get the 40% and 60%?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 172384116 626394.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 114030168 626394.00 { QQ }

11-16-2007 , 02:56 AM

#17

fees

LAPT San Jose Winner

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 10,626

into the green stuff you go

11-16-2007 , 03:04 AM

#18

Dire

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 8,581

I don't really like calling. I don't think it looks particularly strong. Not many people are just going to call with AA/KK here when they can get all the money in 99% of the time without having to deal with a flop. I think calling looks almost exactly like QQ.

I'd shove or fold. Given you said you're 19/15 and being 4-bet by a 25/16 with no recent history, I'd just fold.

11-16-2007 , 04:23 AM

#19

Novles

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,069

looks like a pretty easy fold tbh

11-16-2007 , 04:30 AM

#20

ofishstix

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,171

i def thought i had a terrible table image among 2p2ers. with qq in his spot where tag opens, i (a tag 3 bet), and another tag 4bets all in co/blinds, i think this is crap often enough.

reading this though, i dont know whether i like a shove or a call and get it in on almost every flop.

11-16-2007 , 05:14 AM

#21

KLJ

20k hands/day

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,701

Quote:

does "bluffing" mean 3betting TT/JJ sometimes?

11-16-2007 , 07:47 AM

#22

tubasteve

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 14,283

klj: considering JJ has worse equity against QQ than A2o which would certainly be a bluff, then i think the answer to your question is yes.

edit: then again, he may mean the times he folds to our shove, since hes not calling with 'bluffs' but i didnt read the calcs that closely and im about to fall asleep in my chair

11-16-2007 , 12:06 PM

#23

BigMac1082

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 552

I shove here and expect to see AK+ KK+ with the occasional bluff or JJ or other QQ.

A push here is probably neutral EV at best, but if this is against a reg, I want to show that I will stack off pre with hands other than KK and AA so that when they have QQ or AK and I 5bet all-in, they have to call.