Iirc you said you wanted to make the winners list when yo came into this thread. Did you succeed week 1?

Edit:
Thoughts on playing multiple sites?
I'm not sure how I want to split my money etc. pp

My name on stars was Escobarxx and I had a picture of escobar smirking. Put many people on tilt after I sucked out on them or coolered them. Probably made me an extra 0.5-1 PTBB at the NL10 tables.

yeahhhhhhhh go **** yourself

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Septs (CO): $483.30
ruiz09 (BTN): $80.00
iluvmonkey (SB): $41.00
Tindra1 (BB): $295.10
Hero (UTG): $213.00

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with T A
Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, iluvmonkey raises to $41 all in, 1 fold, Hero calls $34

Flop: ($84.00) J 5 Q

Turn: ($84.00) 3

River: ($84.00) K

I agree with your read on large OOP 4-bets, but your reaction to them is way off. You're giving up a bunch of equity by not getting AI pf since most tag's are going to cf the flop if they miss once you flat a large 4-bet because they'll put you on QQ+ that isn't folding. So unless you balance this by flatting 4 bets with weak hands IP to take away the pot on non A/K flops (which I think is awful as well), then flatting pf is giving up a bunch of equity. Does this make sense?

Oh and I agree that Browerkid, you, is a very solid player, I disagree with you about this point though.

How about balancing by calling AA?

AK is still going to c/f the flop when it misses though whereas it would've stacked off pre, so now you lose out on $100 (or whatever). The only reason to flat a large 4-bet is if you think they have garbage that they'll bluff shove on the flop, or if they'll bluff shove a missed AK on the flop. This is the only scenario in which it might be more +Ev,. But most tag's are just going to c/f once you flat a large 4-bet IP. So just get it in pf with QQ+ if you think they have AK. Otherwise you're going to miss out on a bunch of equity.

100bb deep you may as well shove becuase villain isn't going to fold TT+ or AK after they 4bet. You don't want to call and have AK c/f when it misses or TT+ get scared off by A or K high flops.

Edit: shpanko got there first..............curse my slow typing.

Yeah but we can also get more money from 4bet bluffs. I mean we can pretty much check however often we want with AA.
I guess it all depends on villain as usual.

Yeah basically it comes down to having keen postflop reads on your opponent. For the most part however, at least in my case, if people 4-bet bluff they do it small so as not to commit themselves. If someone does make a large 4-bet, say to $70 or above (at 1-2 nl), then they are doing so to commit themselves and aren't folding pf, whereas they are going to c/f the flop when they miss since your range looks so strong. So by calling you're usually just giving them the chance to hit and letting them c/f when they miss. This changes a lot if you know they'll bluff the flop a high percentage of the time. In that case calling with QQ+ becomes somewhat ok. For the most part though, if they're 4-betting big it's to commit themselves preflop

Calling 100 pre with QQ and folding to any A or K flop is terrible imo. Maybe if your 300 bb deep but your thought process in this hand is extremely flawed. I have no doubt your a good player Bower, you've been playing as long as i can remember. But i dont think this is +ev long term.....

Edit: i agree with the poster above that when people 4 bet bluff they usually make it a smaller amount, not larger. At least thats what i do....Ok ill shut up now =)

I'm having trouble forming my argument in my head so forgive me if I'm not entirely clear. Okay, so the 4-bettor in this case should have JJ+, AK, AQ and air.

If he has KK/AA then calling should be more profitable then shoving because you can get away from King / Ace flops and stack your opponent when a queen flops.

If he has JJ and air then the difference between calling / shoving should be pretty close to neutral. While calling enables JJ to flop a set it also puts them in a position where they may get stacked on like a 10,5,4 flop (I know our hand looks strong but I think that JJ stacks off on these flops just as often as it flops sets). Same goes with air.

AQ/AK: Now this is where this hand really becomes important because AK takes up a large portion of his range. You are right that you lose equity by not getting it in when the flop comes Q high or less, but don't you also gain a lot when the flop does come A / K and you can safely fold? Furthermore, if he has AQ there is a chance the hand could play out like brower / proposition's. If you add in the fact that AK may be bluffing some % of the time on non A / K flops and you may be able to bluff an ace high flop if he has KK, I think this is a winning play.

Edit: I don't think I'm absolutely right and actually have never played QQ this way but I thought about the hand some last night and it kind of made sense.

I don't think that most opponents 4-bet JJ preflop, and remember that in this situation we are considering the scenario where the villain 4-bets large enough such that he is committing himself. If villain does 4-bet JJ I think it's a big mistake to flat QQ against this specific hand since the flop will have overcards to often. A lot of the time JJ will stack off on low flops but it would've stacked off pf anyway, and sometimes JJ might cf low flops since your hand looks so strong (not all the time but some of the time) and of course we give them the opportunity to flop a set and stack us.

With regards to having AA/KK (and this applies to the case of villain holding JJ as well) we were discounting those because Browerkid said he had a read that the large 4-bet OOP was almost always AK or air (which I agree with) so AA/KK are significantly discounted. That said with my image (and that of most 2p2'ers) stacking off with QQ to AA/KK pf is standard (this is an aside).

We were mostly considering the case that villain has AK or air. With regards to this case I believe that without very good reads on your opponents tendencies that shoving pf is definitely optimal (and defintely unexploitable). Though having position helps, are we really going to be able to play A/K high flops optimally? AK and air are both going to check these flops a lot and we are always going to check behind. So say the flop comes A/K high with two rags, they check and we check behind. The turn and river become very tricky even though their range is polarized. If we check back flop and turn and they shove the river what then? Though our hand is not necessarily face up, we do appear weak and may induce some bluffs, and so we make a huge mistake by calling/folding when we're incorrect. Add this to the fact that AK will often c/f rag flops when its 4-bet is flatted IP since our hands looks strong. Lastly by folding A/K high flops we lose the two cards which might have hit our two outer for us (a small difference but significant nonetheless).

not saying i endorse the play, but playing devil's advocate -

if you somehow knew your opponent had AK, and you held QQ - brower's line of flatting and folding an A/K flop is like, what, 4x more +EV than shipping pre?

4x seems a bit too much. Plus it depends a lot on the size of the 4-bet, and the propensity of our opponent to bluff at the flop (specifically different flop textures).

Also take a look at what I said about playing QQ IP in 4-bet pots on A/K high flops. Would you disagree that AK and air both check these a bunch on the flop and sometimes the turn? We are going to put ourselves in ****ty spots sometimes against aggro players when they decide to shove with air on the turn or river on these A/K high boards. This won't happen a ton but folding/calling incorrectly will be a big mistake. Assuming that AK always ships it in on an A/K high flop OOP or that air always c/f's these flops is incorrect, and this difficulty makes shoving QQ pf more attractive imo.

In summation I agree that if we have very good reads on an opponents postflops tendencies in this kind of situation then flatting pf IP can be slightly more +EV. But this is rarely the case, so against the majority of opponents I think shipping it in with QQ pf is much more +EV due to the possibility of making big mistakes postflop if we do decide to flat it.

My take on this is to have a hand on your opponent preflop. I dont know what villain was running, but say he is really tight and you think you are beat, obviously fold dont call.

However, if you do put him on AK, and you are deepstacked, perhaps even a buy in up, I dont see the harm in just calling. This is a common play for large stacks at 1/2 to avoid the flop and bet hard.

Either way, sometimes you will call into KK AA and get stacked off.

I always just got it in pre because it was less work to stack someone

Dan, you would've got stacked by those hands anyway unless you're way deep.

this is a good post.....the key here is that I am never ever putting the 4 bettor on aa or kk (he might have aa or kk like 5% of the time), meaning I have his range crushed. ak makes up a huge % of his range here.....when the flop comes all unders. I'm in great shape, he's either c/f, bluff pushing with 2 overs, or pushing a smaller pair into me.

I've been playing a long time, and I feel this is a good play based on my read, and the hand range I give him. Its cool people disagree, the more discussion the better

I agree that when >150BB's deep flatting IP is fine against a 4-bet, I was speaking specifically to the case where we have around 100 BB's and our opponent made a large committing 4-bet preflop from OOP

Hey guys, less actual words and more "PKOWALSKI SUCKS!" plz.

PKOWALSKI SUCKS!

I see huge 4 bets from AA-KK wayyy more often than 5%

4x is def too much, i did some quick maths and if the squeeze was to like 32, it's more like 2x i think

just downloaded pokerEV
what does this all mean