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nl200 pre flop shove with 99 nl200 pre flop shove with 99

09-20-2009 , 09:57 AM
Villain has only been at the table for 19 hands. he was running at 21/21 and had squeezed once and 3 bet the button once from the BB.
this hand makes the 2nd time he squeezed. what is my optimal play here?

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($120.15)
BB ($199)
UTG ($69.50)
Hero (MP) ($396)
Button ($289.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9, 9
UTG calls $2, Hero bets $8, 2 folds, BB raises $25, 1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero??
09-20-2009 , 10:02 AM
where is the sqeeze?
09-20-2009 , 10:04 AM
oh my....
i am an idiot...

ok forget the squeeze. how do you proceed to the 3 bet? i figure he is playing back at me isolating the limper.
09-20-2009 , 10:05 AM
It's a small sample, but he seems aggro propably a good spot to 4bet/call
09-20-2009 , 10:06 AM
fold ~ call > 4bsmall/fold > 4bsmall/call > 4bshove

"It's a small sample, but he seems aggro propably a good spot to 4bet/call"
sample is way too small
09-20-2009 , 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibbel
fold > call > 4bsmall/fold > 4bsmall/call > 4bshove
4b/fold is terrible unless villain is very bad.
09-20-2009 , 10:10 AM
folding is best here
09-20-2009 , 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibbel
fold ~ call > 4bsmall/fold > 4bsmall/call > 4bshove

"It's a small sample, but he seems aggro propably a good spot to 4bet/call"
sample is way too small
Agreed but it can give you a first impression how he plays, it's high variance but yeah I would 4bet/call.
I don't mind calling to and poker.
09-20-2009 , 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrub
4b/fold is terrible unless villain is very bad.
i never said it's good, i agree, but i think 4b/call is even worse, because his range more polarized then merged because of the UTG limper.

if we don't 4b big, we can't profitable call a shove.
09-20-2009 , 01:46 PM
folding and calling are both fine on this small of a sample size at 1/2 imo.

4bet/call is fine if he's going to be 3betting pairs and 5bet shoving them to protect himself from being bluffed. However, people who can recognize this spot are rare at 1/2, and people who balance their 3bet range here are almost nonexistent.
09-20-2009 , 02:00 PM
I think shoving is way better than 4-bet small and calling a shove since we don't want to let him shove AJ/KQ/AQ etc thinking we're playing back light.
09-20-2009 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpanko
I think shoving is way better than 4-bet small and calling a shove since we don't want to let him shove AJ/KQ/AQ etc thinking we're playing back light.
Why should he 3bet those instead of playing a 3way pot with a likely fish? I think his is range should be polarized between good value hands and pure bluffs with AXs,SCs,small PPs.

If this isn't the case i agree with shoving being better, but it still sucks.
09-20-2009 , 02:32 PM
if you think his range is polarized to air/QQ+ and AK then 99 = JJ essentially. I would 4b and call it off b/c he'll have enough air that he may jam like a suited ace little so it's not like he's always showing up with a flip or better.

if you think his range is going to include hands like TT+ and AQ then it's much worse to be shipping 99 here.

With no read/history at all I would tend to fold and avoid a high variance spot where I'm basically guessing. As you get a better read or more history, you can adjust.
09-20-2009 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpanko
I think shoving is way better than 4-bet small and calling a shove since we don't want to let him shove AJ/KQ/AQ etc thinking we're playing back light.
I think a shove can be fine, but hard to balance this or your bluffs will cost alot? And 4betting instead of shoving gives us the opportunity to 4bet bluff in future.
09-20-2009 , 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibbel
Why should he 3bet those instead of playing a 3way pot with a likely fish? I think his is range should be polarized between good value hands and pure bluffs with AXs,SCs,small PPs.

If this isn't the case i agree with shoving being better, but it still sucks.
This kind of player just 3-bets because he sees a decent hand and he wants to be aggressive. He's not necessarily polarizing his range even though, yes, he should. Thus when he 3 bets AQ/KQ/AJ or something and we make a small 4 bet, he will sometimes think we're just getting frustrated of his 3-bets and that we are now 4-bet bluffing and so he'll shove which sucks because we'd rather take the pot down pf than flip.
09-20-2009 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaze2007
I think a shove can be fine, but hard to balance this or your bluffs will cost alot? And 4betting instead of shoving gives us the opportunity to 4bet bluff in future.
True villain knows we will never flat out 4-bet shove with like 68s or something but I don't think it matters. As long as we can balance our 4-bet shoving range in terms of strength (i.e. we're shoving 99 and AA etc) then it will still be tough to play against and he'll be more wary of 3-betting a hand like TT or AQ because we've shown him we can shove a wide range. Though tbh this **** doesn't matter because I doubt he'll really take notice of what our "range" for 4-bet shoving is. In this situation, in a vacuum, and for future hands, I think shoving with 99 >>>>> 4-bet small and calling a shove.
09-20-2009 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpanko
This kind of player just 3-bets because he sees a decent hand and he wants to be aggressive. He's not necessarily polarizing his range even though, yes, he should. Thus when he 3 bets AQ/KQ/AJ or something and we make a small 4 bet, he will sometimes think we're just getting frustrated of his 3-bets and that we are now 4-bet bluffing and so he'll shove which sucks because we'd rather take the pot down pf than flip.
No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($120.15)
BB ($199)
UTG ($69.50)
Hero (MP) ($396)
Button ($289.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9, 9
UTG calls $2, Hero bets $8, 2 folds, BB raises $25, 1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises $388 (All-In)

this is what i was thinking. so you think this is fine?
09-20-2009 , 03:31 PM
i would just fold. okay, he's 3bet twice in 20 hands.. that means nothing, and against some people, they tighten up there 3b range to strictly value after they 3bet twice in first 20 hands knowing that they are going to be played back at.

I also don't think he bluffs this certain situation given he's already 3b twice and has aggro image.
09-20-2009 , 03:37 PM
^ that's true. except that it was 3x from the BB.. so i was suspicious.
09-20-2009 , 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpanko
True villain knows we will never flat out 4-bet shove with like 68s or something but I don't think it matters. As long as we can balance our 4-bet shoving range in terms of strength (i.e. we're shoving 99 and AA etc) then it will still be tough to play against and he'll be more wary of 3-betting a hand like TT or AQ because we've shown him we can shove a wide range. Though tbh this **** doesn't matter because I doubt he'll really take notice of what our "range" for 4-bet shoving is. In this situation, in a vacuum, and for future hands, I think shoving with 99 >>>>> 4-bet small and calling a shove.
He only 3bet once and squeezed once. I think it's too soon to think vilain won't give us credit for a real hand given his own image.
09-20-2009 , 04:19 PM
4-bet/fold when you have A3o or KTo, not when you have 99.

      
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