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NL100 - QQ vs. UTG minraise NL100 - QQ vs. UTG minraise

04-22-2011 , 10:31 AM
Villian is 24/17 7% 3bet /ft3bet 17% and 4bets 17% over a small sample of 127Hands, no reads.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $1(BB) Replayer
SB ($137)
BB ($601)
UTG ($128)
Hero ($100)
CO ($140)
BTN ($72.50)

Dealt to Hero Q Q

UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $7, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG raises to $128 (AI), Hero???

Never saw him minraising before, table was kind of meh only one semifish on the BTN but no crazy 3bet dynamic.
What range could I expect here vs. this guy, he snapshoves after foldet around to him I mean he have to realize that I could be def. strong here vs. UTG, but If he knows that he could easily valueshove QQ+ here......this hand is really confusing me.
04-22-2011 , 10:34 AM
not folding
04-22-2011 , 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Ferus
not folding
+1, and dont think much about it
04-22-2011 , 01:46 PM
misclick equity. i'm fine calling it off
04-22-2011 , 01:56 PM
Stove your equity vs a range of QQ+/AKo/AKs (w/ maybe 2 JJ combos) and you'll have your answer. Though a lot depends on your image.
04-22-2011 , 02:00 PM
I'd lean towards fold. If you can handle decent variance, then it's probably close to neutral to slightly -EV w/ the money already in. It's really a matter of whether you add JJ into the range or not. If not, then even with the money in it's likely very slight -EV.
04-22-2011 , 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy
I'd lean towards fold. If you can handle decent variance, then it's probably close to neutral to slightly -EV w/ the money already in. It's really a matter of whether you add JJ into the range or not. If not, then even with the money in it's likely very slight -EV.
This is 80% AK imo
04-22-2011 , 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Ferus
This is 80% AK imo
Even if we assume that and do a range like below, it's still pretty neutral in terms of fold/call.

Ace Poker Drills Poker Software
Board:

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
44.8194% 43.0927% 1.7267% [ QcQd ]
55.1806% 53.4539% 1.7267% [ AKo(100), AKs(100),AA(40),QQ-KK(75) ]
04-22-2011 , 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy
Even if we assume that and do a range like below, it's still pretty neutral in terms of fold/call.

Ace Poker Drills Poker Software
Board:

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
44.8194% 43.0927% 1.7267% [ QcQd ]
55.1806% 53.4539% 1.7267% [ AKo(100), AKs(100),AA(40),QQ-KK(75) ]
yeah.. but with 10,5bb allready in the pot I think we have to call
04-22-2011 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakDaddy
Even if we assume that and do a range like below, it's still pretty neutral in terms of fold/call.

Ace Poker Drills Poker Software
Board:

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
44.8194% 43.0927% 1.7267% [ QcQd ]
55.1806% 53.4539% 1.7267% [ AKo(100), AKs(100),AA(40),QQ-KK(75) ]
I think his play is indicative of JJ maybe TT also so if add even a few combos of JJ its a snap call.
04-22-2011 , 09:47 PM
Calling really fast and loving it. AK/JJ I'm sigh calling off. Anything worse and I can find a fold.
04-23-2011 , 02:28 AM
i call here and always see AA
04-23-2011 , 01:28 PM
if u 3bet for value then call but i'd like avoiding these spots and just flat pre(unless against spewy donk or station smth like that). Actually i dont like calling here, we are prolly far behind or flippin at best, if i put his range AK+ and AA/KK, but pretty much have to call cause after our 3bet for value folding is burning money.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 19005028 104399.00 { QdQh }
Hand 1: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 28730686 104399.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo

sample is pretty much irrelavent imo, but as played i call & note. and btw 3bet size sucks, I'd 3bet him to 10$ prolly.
04-23-2011 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cilderr
if u 3bet for value then call but i'd like avoiding these spots and just flat pre(unless against spewy donk or station smth like that). Actually i dont like calling here, we are prolly far behind or flippin at best, if i put his range AK+ and AA/KK, but pretty much have to call cause after our 3bet for value folding is burning money.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 19005028 104399.00 { QdQh }
Hand 1: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 28730686 104399.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo

sample is pretty much irrelavent imo, but as played i call & note. and btw 3bet size sucks, I'd 3bet him to 10$ prolly.
flatting a UTGminraise with QQ is burning money.. unless some sqz monkeys / ss are in the blinds
04-23-2011 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Ferus
flatting a UTGminraise with QQ is burning money.. unless some sqz monkeys / ss are in the blinds
obv it depends on stats/images, but bluff3bet/folding w queens against some players is burning def more then flattin. as played im just saying that if u 3bet for value then shove is a call, but for some players it makes variance too high. anyway the bottom line is that if u 3bet qq against utg open w qq, then u pretty much must fistpumpcall his shove(otherwise u were just bluffin with qq and there are way better hands to turn into bluffs than qq). for some it just sets variance too high.
04-23-2011 , 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cilderr
bluff3bet/folding
value 3bet..
04-23-2011 , 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cilderr
obv it depends on stats/images, but bluff3bet/folding w queens against some players is burning def more then flattin. as played im just saying that if u 3bet for value then shove is a call, but for some players it makes variance too high. anyway the bottom line is that if u 3bet qq against utg open w qq, then u pretty much must fistpumpcall his shove(otherwise u were just bluffin with qq and there are way better hands to turn into bluffs than qq). for some it just sets variance too high.
meh...your logic is off. we could be 3betting someone who opens wide (for value), but if he only 4b's AA/KK.....then shoving QQ is bad, but our initial 3b was still for value. everything depends on villain's 4b range, not his opening range.
04-23-2011 , 03:13 PM
This is a tough fold, but a fold nonetheless, IMO.

Look, this is such a high variance play and against an opponent shoving 90BB into a 10BB pot pre we can assume we have an advantage, and a pretty sizeable one at that. No matter what he has this is a horrible push so, assuming we are the better player, take the lower variance play.

I'd assume his range is (TT+ AK)
04-23-2011 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Backstroker41
meh...your logic is off. we could be 3betting someone who opens wide (for value), but if he only 4b's AA/KK.....then shoving QQ is bad, but our initial 3b was still for value. everything depends on villain's 4b range, not his opening range.
u didnt prolly get my point so nvm. my english sucks anyway.
04-23-2011 , 11:35 PM
this guy is probably on monkey tilt from another table and just assuming you will snap call JJ/QQ.

This is an incredibly annoying spot but I hate folding and I hate calling.

I think I call and then say irl "I can't beleive he just ***** 4bet shoved 100bb with AA".

Given his stats also makes this more of a call for me. But hey, he probably did have aces.

edit: make your 3b sizing larger.
04-24-2011 , 12:03 AM
calling is probably not a bad idea just to get a read

either that or you can fold and try to look for more spots in the future where he opens for the minimum and figure out what that range is
04-24-2011 , 03:34 AM
Fold.
shoving is a terrible decision... donk=much better place to take him down later.

3bet is the correct line, it is a value bet considering his entire range, but when he 4bet shoves it narrows it down... i would say your best case scenario for his shove is JJ, more likely KK+, AK, more often the higher pockets IMO

      
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