Which is the fundamental question for the play of the hand on the flop. How polarized is his raising range and what percentage of it is bluffs. Obviously if he's bluffing this flop a high frequency expecting us to lay down the best hand then we need to continue in a manner which best exploits his high bluff frequency. Whether that is call/bet call/check or raise/call is a function of exactly where he's most likely to put in the most money with the bluffing portion of his range.

If none of these options are profitable because he just doesn't have enough bluffs in his range then we need to fold the flop.

1) I don't think he has a 5
2) And we want him to fold his bluffs which we are ahead of because....
3) last I checked him calling with A5 BEATS US.

Again, why would he do that?

If he has a draw, he'll stick it in on the flop but fold turn because now there si only one card to come (or, lol, call when he hits the turn making you look like a tool)

again, 3b flop and call + lead turn differ in exactly one way: villain gets to see the turn before acting. For like the 20th time, PLEASE explain how this can ever be of any advantage to you, you are driving us ****ing nuts here

"1) I don't think he has a 5
2) And we want him to fold his bluffs which we are ahead of because....
3) last I checked him calling with A5 BEATS US."

1. Ok you never said what you'd do in this hand...I'm assuming fold the flop because you seem like a nit.

2. I just explained to you why we want him to fold his bluffs (well, either fold or incorrectly call w/ the wrong odds). IF it is a bluff, it's probably two high cards. If either hit it'll give him the best hand. So we can't give a free card.

3. I meant A7, not A5.

I give up, I don't think myself or any other poster could have really explained it more clearly. Not trying to come off as a complete d.ick here, but yoda you have a lot to learn. You're not thinking in terms of ranges at all and your reasoning for our actions/future actions is severely flawed.

Lol I'll bet I've been playing poker longer than you. I'm thinking in terms of ranges and you STILL haven't said what you put him on. Yet you tell me I should be thinking of ranges.

whatever you say buddy. You're right, you are a better poker player.

+1

All his posts are just awesome !! he reachs durrr thinking level obv ...

I don't understand how some players can be thinking to call flop and leading turn or 3 betting flop. In fact it's just the same line, we'll chase out all villains bluff so he'll play perfectly against our range. I'm still thinking flop is a trivial fold without a specific history but if you really love your hand, I'd prefer to call and c/c twice and let him bluff ...

lol yodachoda please dont post in strategy forum unless you are asking questions, you have no idea what you are talking about.

This can be of use to you if your opponent has reason to believe that he has more fold equity on the turn than on the flop. For instance you have witnessed him in certain spots over your 21k sample be more prone to raising fishy lines. I know I have played against players, regs even, who auto-assume that someone is f.o.s when they take an unorthodox line on a board like this and spew off in a spot where they would be less likely to make the same play against a player who 3bet the flop. Yes, I agree that we are allowing him to see the turn card in a spot where we think he's bluffing; but against the opponent I have described I think it's a price we should be willing to pay given how little the turn should be changing the relative strength of our hand.

tbh, before this thread i thought yodachoda was the best leveler ever.

i'm not so sure anymore.

sorry for spamming your thread, i don't really have any thoughts on this hand. it's a crappy spot.

You can fit in vill's range A5s and 56s (15% call open) - he's mostly flatting suited gappers than ATo+,KJo+ vs UTG. And his 13% raise flop suggests that he's not raising 88-TT (lol @ raising them for bluff). That leaves him with 5's and slowplayed KK+. So I give him ~7-8 combos for value and not more than 3-4 as a bluff (raising your cbet 3way).

Btw, those 22k are from dataMining? How come you've had so many hands and no real reads @ all. Nothing about table dynamics or you... Many people would slow big hands 3way on the flop so stacking off is not so bad. With no info I tend to fold. If I go with the hand, it's a nice discussion between 3bet/get in and call/lead turn (should be small tho, to leave room for a bluff raise). You have to balance this vs a reg so...dno really.

p.s. Yoda is my hero. My goal is to reach his skill level. Someday !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5QEAI_O2IA

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $1(BB) Replayer
SB ($135)
BB ($100)
Hero ($200)
UTG+1 ($100)
CO ($117)
BTN ($100)

Dealt to Hero J J

Hero raises to $3.50, UTG+1 calls $3.50, fold, BTN calls $3.50, fold, fold

FLOP ($12) 5 7 5

Hero bets $8, UTG+1 raises to $23, BTN folds, Hero raises to $196 (AI), UTG+1 calls $73.50 (AI)

TURN ($205) 5 7 5 8

RIVER ($205) 5 7 5 8 K

UTG+1 shows 3 5
(Pre 22%, Flop 91.1%, Turn 95.5%)

Hero shows J J
(Pre 78%, Flop 8.9%, Turn 4.5%)

UTG+1 wins $202

Was really shocked having seen 54 in his hand.

In this hand i dint use his Mp Cold Call range(I began to use this after this hand),and think that he is 100% dont have 5x because I am on his place never call in MP with 5x,because many regs behind us.

But I really dont know what the reason was in flop raise with trips?
Maybe he frightened of Bu will get good card on Turn and complete his Full H because in Bu spectre of preflop cold call is many pocket pairs and on other side any J+ card can gives Full H. to me.

Because reg tend to overplayed a lot their overpairs. I'd play the same with 77 or 5x, or if I flat AA or KK pf.

He's also probably afraid to see the action killed by overcard if you hold 88-TT.

yeah I'm not sure what you are hoping for when you shove the flop. You hope he calls with 88 preflop and raise/calls the flop? Way more likely he flats the flop and bets the turn or something of that nature. I think calling flop>>>>shoving......

I'd even prefer folding over shoving flop. Like your basically in the middle of your value range and close to the absolute bottom of a good stack off range. Tens? Would be the abbbsolute worst hand i'd ever consider putting in 100bb. I think if this is some sort of 3bet pot scenario where stacks are much shorter we can talk stacking off, but this far down in your range+so much money behind+taking away the ability for him to bluff+multiway pot means you cannot just shove and expect to be +EV.

like raise/calling the flop with 88 is kinda nut-******ed. Do you often see people shoving KQ when raised on these flops? I wish.....