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NL100 JJ OOP Paired Board Line Check NL100 JJ OOP Paired Board Line Check

07-05-2008 , 09:27 PM
Villain was 10/7/1.3 over 60 hands and had not 3bet me once.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $102.20
Hero (CO): $216.45
BTN: $144.85
SB: $49.45
BB: $99.00

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J J
1 fold, Hero raises to $3.50, BTN raises to $9, 2 folds, Hero calls $5.50

Flop: ($19.50) A 9 A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $6, Hero raises to $24, BTN calls $18

Turn: ($67.50) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($67.50) T (2 players)
Hero bets $35, BTN raises to $85, Hero folds

Last edited by stupandaus; 07-05-2008 at 09:40 PM.
07-05-2008 , 09:34 PM
River is a fold. But bet the turn, if he raises you can fold then too. its the same effect as betting the river but when you bet the turn you get more value from when your ahead
07-05-2008 , 09:34 PM
wat
07-05-2008 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jub.
River is a fold. But bet the turn, if he raises you can fold then too. its the same effect as betting the river but when you bet the turn you get more value from when your ahead
Are you C/F'ing river as played? Or is B/F okay?

I didn't bet turn because on flop he timed down and asked for time then just called. It looked very strong to me, so I decided to take a more passive line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larry31
wat
wat
07-05-2008 , 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stupandaus
Are you C/F'ing river as played? Or is B/F okay?

I didn't bet turn because on flop he timed down and asked for time then just called. It looked very strong to me, so I decided to take a more passive line.



wat
Your b/f line is good as played, youll get called lots
07-05-2008 , 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry31
wat
Sorry. you gave no reads before so couldn't answer with anything constructive.

bassically hes extrmely narrow here, hes passive post and a nit pre = ur crushed 100% why are you putting more money in after ur chosen flop action?
07-05-2008 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry31
Sorry. you gave no reads before so couldn't answer with anything constructive.

bassically hes extrmely narrow here, hes passive post and a nit pre = ur crushed 100% why are you putting more money in after ur chosen flop action?
Tiny hand sample + I'm a calling station
07-05-2008 , 10:53 PM
I don't really get the flop c/r w no history, seems like all you accomplish is folding out worse. Explain?
07-05-2008 , 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian O'Nolan
I don't really get the flop c/r w no history, seems like all you accomplish is folding out worse. Explain?
He's betting $6 into $19.50. What would you do here? Flat/Fold? lol
07-05-2008 , 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian O'Nolan
I don't really get the flop c/r w no history, seems like all you accomplish is folding out worse. Explain?
You don't think a nit might fold QQ and KK?

If you are check raising the flop hoping to fold out better pocket pairs I think leading the turn is probably best. You said you wanted to take a more passive line but really you just took a more confusing line once you decided to bet the river. I think betting the turn looks more in line if you want to rep an ace, if he calls you have an easy check fold on the river.
07-05-2008 , 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by curesive
You don't think a nit might fold QQ and KK?
I think trying to get QQ/KK to fold here when your only read is 60 hands is pretty bad, would be better w just one ace on board. Also lol in general at trying to make people to fold QQ/KK.
07-05-2008 , 11:47 PM
I agree that the check raise on the flop is weird but I think the only reason he should be doing it is to fold out better hands or at least set up a credible line for having an ace so you can get them to fold on the turn. I assumed this was the OP's intention because villain most likely has a very tight range.

Sure 60 hands isn't the best sample but it isn't the worst either - this guy is probably pretty damn nitty. I don't think it is a far stretch at all to get somebody to fold QQ or KK on this board by the turn, especially this tight villain. I know we don't have post flop reads on him but I think it's fair to assume he will be on the weak tightish side.
07-06-2008 , 12:17 AM
definetly agree if you want to rep an ace you have to bet the turn...

If you had the ace you'd prolly check call the flop, bet the turn and bet the river... so why not take that line?

The check raise is a little worrysome as it builds a big enough pot that makes it hard for him to fold on the river without a shove, but since his bet was only $6 on the flop it's not so bad...

now if you were convinced he's strong, betting the river makes no sense at all... if you wanted him to fold, you had to bet the turn as well, and when he calls your turn bet, i'm c/f 99% of rivers...
07-06-2008 , 01:17 AM
I was just really confused by the $6 bet. How do you generally interpret this?
07-06-2008 , 01:29 AM
maybe a smaller c/raise like 16-19. or maybe even c/min raise, bet turn, fold river. as played i think i give up after he calls check/raise. river bet is bad imo, he's never calling with worse plus the only hand you beat 10s got there too. his flop bet is sick tho i agree
07-06-2008 , 02:00 AM
So are you raising the flop for value or are you bluffing?

If it is the former I think b/f turn is the way to go. If it is the latter, I think you need to just give up and c/f... I don't understand the river bet, especially given the turn check.
07-06-2008 , 02:29 AM
What is his 3 bet range here? A player this tight doesn't have many Aces in his range you wouldn't think. I think an argument can be made for betting the flop as what is essentially a bluff against most of his range, and then just check/folding to anymore action. AK is obviously in his range, and possibly AQ right? Those hands are continuing, obv. If he continues with his pairs, also, it's going to make it tough for us to know where he's at. I think he lays those down a lot, especially if you have no history of bluffing him, or others at the table. The donk lead is cheaper than the check raise when it doesn't work, and since he doesn't seem like a thinking player, should accomplish the same thing.

Firing a second barrel probably isn't horrible, but I don't think it is going to do much good, we're beat, and he's not going away if he didn't on the flop.

The river bet hasn't a lot of purpose. It's never going to fold out better, or get called by worse imo. It's pretty bad.

I had a similar hand against a live nit the other day, and the flop was very similar. Guy had never 3 bet me after a decent amount of history, flop comes A55 two tone. I almost checked reflexively, but instead led out with what had to look like a value bet of 60% of the pot. He folded QQ face up, I had 77. That's best case scenario imo.
07-07-2008 , 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Possum2007
What is his 3 bet range here? A player this tight doesn't have many Aces in his range you wouldn't think. I think an argument can be made for betting the flop as what is essentially a bluff against most of his range, and then just check/folding to anymore action. AK is obviously in his range, and possibly AQ right? Those hands are continuing, obv. If he continues with his pairs, also, it's going to make it tough for us to know where he's at. I think he lays those down a lot, especially if you have no history of bluffing him, or others at the table. The donk lead is cheaper than the check raise when it doesn't work, and since he doesn't seem like a thinking player, should accomplish the same thing.

Firing a second barrel probably isn't horrible, but I don't think it is going to do much good, we're beat, and he's not going away if he didn't on the flop.

The river bet hasn't a lot of purpose. It's never going to fold out better, or get called by worse imo. It's pretty bad.

I had a similar hand against a live nit the other day, and the flop was very similar. Guy had never 3 bet me after a decent amount of history, flop comes A55 two tone. I almost checked reflexively, but instead led out with what had to look like a value bet of 60% of the pot. He folded QQ face up, I had 77. That's best case scenario imo.
i agree with your advice, but qq vs an A high flop is muc different then QQ vs two A's on the flop... QQ prolly doesn't fold to your flop lead with two A's on board..
08-14-2008 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverThere
i agree with your advice, but qq vs an A high flop is muc different then QQ vs two A's on the flop... QQ prolly doesn't fold to your flop lead with two A's on board..

I think you're right about that. Guess I hadn't really considered that. It also makes firing that second barrel against a player you don't have any reads on more iffy. I still would do it against an unknown sometimes, it may be a leak, but I'll know what kind of player I'm dealing with if he check folds to a second barrel.

      
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