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NL 100 barelling weakness NL 100 barelling weakness

01-05-2010 , 03:35 AM
Guy was 20/15. After he c/c I can see no really good hands in his range mostly Jx,he shouldn't have weak kings cause he is utg,maybe TT-99,QQ.

I guess I should have bet 15 on the turn,what about river?
Or is it just spew?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $103.20
BB: $125.85
UTG: $103.85
MP: $209.05
CO: $100.00
Hero (BTN): $105.05

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN with 7 7
UTG raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $3, 2 folds

Flop: ($7.50) K J 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $5, UTG calls $5

Turn: ($17.50) 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $13, UTG calls $13

River: ($43.50) 2 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $37, UTG calls $37
01-05-2010 , 03:40 AM
looks to me like he went into bluff catch mode. i think we need a little more info about villain and your image before a 3barrel becomes profitable.
01-05-2010 , 06:13 AM
i agree he probably doesnt have a king here but his play/your play is very dependent on history and image..
01-05-2010 , 06:50 AM
This is KQ/AK a lot.

I would strongly consider folding flop or sometimes raising it as a bluff. 77 is bad on this board and calling is not great.
01-05-2010 , 07:05 AM
How you are viewed is waaaaaaaay more relevant than the villain. As played in a vacuum I guess when you fire twice you feel more inclined to fire a third since your showdown value is rather minimal.
01-05-2010 , 07:44 AM
it depends on ur image for the villain to hav this bluff works ...
01-05-2010 , 07:49 AM
Looks good to me, i wouldnt include results though. Your hand does border on having enough showdown value, i think it would be better with something worse or something with a gutter, but i still think its fine if ur image is clean
Am actually curious as to what he called u with, if u wouldnt mind pming me his hand
01-05-2010 , 08:00 AM
Don't particularly like the turn because you more or less have to fire the river if he calls which makes this an expensive bluff.

Going to go out on a limb and guess he had QQ here.
01-05-2010 , 08:19 AM
If he had a K make a note and "c/r the **** out of his cbets"
01-05-2010 , 08:37 AM
when a reg chk's a flop like that from UTG, you should know darn well hes not chk/f. betting this flop is usually gonna result in you having to run a mutistreet bluff like this while not really knowing wtf youre up against without history. for intensities sake, i guess its not horrible, but really uneeded imo.
01-05-2010 , 08:41 AM
Yes but imo this is good. U either give up and check the hand down or u fire 3streets. The fact that we dont have history reduces the frequency of him checking a strong hand imo
01-05-2010 , 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddhaMonk187
If he had a K make a note and "c/r the **** out of his cbets"
meh not cbetting top pair in one spot doesn't mean he never cbets it. be super wary of overapplying observations.

checking a king here is pretty suspect but i wouldn't ever infer that it means our opponent will check one in position or in other spots at all. if he did check Kx here your best effort would be in deciding WHY - what about YOUR image/dynamic makes him think that checking Kx here is best? perhaps it's that you blindly barrel off with a hand that would have folded to a cbet, like 77?
01-05-2010 , 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddhaMonk187
Yes but imo this is good. U either give up and check the hand down or u fire 3streets. The fact that we dont have history reduces the frequency of him checking a strong hand imo
really? i would think without history when an UTG raises, bttn flats, and we get a flop like this when villian has QQ, not sure he can automatically assume hes going to get called by much worse when he bets. and if he does, sometimes difficult to figure out how to play turns/rivers profitably against an unknown.

*edit, actually its 100nl, so maybe my asumptions are no good?
01-05-2010 , 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by terp
meh not cbetting top pair in one spot doesn't mean he never cbets it. be super wary of overapplying observations.

checking a king here is pretty suspect but i wouldn't ever infer that it means our opponent will check one in position or in other spots at all. if he did check Kx here your best effort would be in deciding WHY - what about YOUR image/dynamic makes him think that checking Kx here is best? perhaps it's that you blindly barrel off with a hand that would have folded to a cbet, like 77?
i wouldnt barell here with 77 like hero but with 89dd type of hands its fine. And i agree with the overapplying if we had history or an aggro dynamic. But without it we can assume that not cbetting tp is amongst villians habits imo. Not saying that he never does but that we have seen him doing so, which is a very useful read imo
01-05-2010 , 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkconcept
really? i would think without history when an UTG raises, bttn flats, and we get a flop like this when villian has QQ, not sure he can automatically assume hes going to get called by much worse when he bets. and if he does, sometimes difficult to figure out how to play turns/rivers profitably against an unknown.

*edit, actually its 100nl, so maybe my asumptions are no good?
but would u c/c 3streets vs unknown with qq here?
01-05-2010 , 08:59 AM
Ty guys,my reasoning for this bluff was that he was kinda aggresive,not like hyper or what but he was definetlly c-betting most flops. We haven't tangled nor has he seen me bluffing 3 streets. + the feeling that he is never gonna play a good hand like this,but obv he had QQ and thought that i have only air here so he called. :P I spew soo much recently and get called too often.


Agreed that 89d type of hand is obv better,just had that inner feeling
01-05-2010 , 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddhaMonk187
i wouldnt barell here with 77 like hero but with 89dd type of hands its fine. And i agree with the overapplying if we had history or an aggro dynamic. But without it we can assume that not cbetting tp is amongst villians habits imo. Not saying that he never does but that we have seen him doing so, which is a very useful read imo
i get that we've seen it but in all likelihood it prob says more about what he thinks of us than a static read about him. if you wish to tell me something like "nobody at 100nl adjusts like this" i will politely disagree.

as far as barreling with 98 or 77 - both have pretty ****ty equity against his checking (and nearly always calling) range. don't be deceived. just sigh and check both.

as far as guy c/c QQ - this is pretty typical, just try to get a feel for the bounds of his c/c range and remember that position should let you play perfectly, as long as you don't spastically auto monkey barrel off here every time someone checks to you as the pfr
01-05-2010 , 09:11 AM
Do we think we should even be calling 87 or 77 on the flop here?

Folding or rasing is much better in my opinion
01-05-2010 , 09:22 AM
We shouldn't be calling cause we have no equity+no FE.
01-05-2010 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by terp
i get that we've seen it but in all likelihood it prob says more about what he thinks of us than a static read about him. if you wish to tell me something like "nobody at 100nl adjusts like this" i will politely disagree.
i totally agree that a nl100 reg can start checking toppair when he's seen us monkey barrelling off like u say. But if we havent given him a reason make this adaption (thats what i mean with no history and no aggro dynamics) and he checks tp its a notable tendecy of how he is able to play tp without having made a adaption to villain (here: to hero)
And yes if u notice something it wont shouldnt become a static read and an absolute truth only because u've seen it once - in general as well as in this specific situation.
And I also agree with you that it could

Quote:
Originally Posted by terp
as far as barreling with 98 or 77 - both have pretty ****ty equity against his checking (and nearly always calling) range. don't be deceived. just sigh and check both.
heros hand has like 8% eq and 89dd has like 25%eq.. so qite a difference. lot of turns that improve us whereas 77 draws to 2 outs.. thats why i wouldnt do this with 77 but with 8d9d type of hands.

Last edited by BuddhaMonk187; 01-05-2010 at 01:06 PM.
01-05-2010 , 01:46 PM
you chose one of the worst hands to barrel with.
01-05-2010 , 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkconcept
when a reg chk's a flop like that from UTG, you should know darn well hes not chk/f. betting this flop is usually gonna result in you having to run a mutistreet bluff like this while not really knowing wtf youre up against without history. for intensities sake, i guess its not horrible, but really uneeded imo.
saying that a reg will not c/f this flop is not true at all. There are tons of hands in his range that will c/f here as it hits our range pretty hard. I don't mind the flop bet because the check looks so weak, but when he c/c's it is time to put on the brakes.
01-05-2010 , 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ionu
saying that a reg will not c/f this flop is not true at all. There are tons of hands in his range that will c/f here as it hits our range pretty hard. I don't mind the flop bet because the check looks so weak, but when he c/c's it is time to put on the brakes.
flop range hits villian harder than it does hero, ducy? if villian chk/f here (with presumably air) it is a leak. i think about the only person who opens UTG and chk/f this flop to a button caller is a fish.
01-05-2010 , 07:22 PM
i dont mind firing one barrel here (prefer checking TBH 3 way with an UTG raiser) but if we're firing 2 barrels we have to be prepared to fire 3- as darkconcept said.

however, i dont think that an UTG raiser PF who checks a flop to a BTN caller is automaticall going to call every time.
01-05-2010 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddhaMonk187
heros hand has like 8% eq and 89dd has like 25%eq.. so qite a difference. lot of turns that improve us whereas 77 draws to 2 outs.. thats why i wouldnt do this with 77 but with 8d9d type of hands.
having 20% equity against a range that is c/c is better than 10% but why would you bluff against a range that is c/c is the pt

      
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