100NL 1,2 blinds 7 handed.
Villian has 300 playing solid doesn't seem too bluffy.
Hero has 200 playing solid but i min raise a lot and been stealing a lot of little pots. No one has played back yet they been playing fit or fold.
avg stack 200

Preflop:
Villian min raises 5 way action
Hero 84 calls

Flop:
928:
Check all around

Turn:
4
Hero bets 3/4 pot
Villian raises 3x my bet
Rest of table folds
Hero calls I'm putting him on an over pair, 2 pair and maybe sets slowplayed on the flop. Should i even thinking about folding on turn to this range?
optimistically i was thinking he has overpair and wanted to see safe river.

River 3
Villian all in

Hero Calls???

I feel it was a marginal call hoping he misplayed an overpair but it feels like he has 2 pair or better.

Is folding here bad or exploitable?

I feel calling here is slightly bad what do people think but my hand is fairly strong for a 2 pair garbage board.

Fold pre and fold river

Fold turn. Being exploited isn't something to consider here whatsoever.

In gametime situation though are you folding turn after they reraise, when we have middle 2 pair?

What are we calling with than 98 or sets only?

Folding pre seems nitty if its 5 way with minraise we are getting pot odds can't be too bad?

Folding pre seems nitty if its 5 way with minraise we are getting pot odds can't be too bad


What are you hoping to flop by calling pre?

8h4h in my mind is played like 8h7h so looking for flush but being aware someone might be playing a higher flush draw.

A84 board played carefully keeping in mind you have bottom 2 pair.

any 88x or 44x board again keeping in mind if you get too much action you might have kicker problems.

With position if no one flops anything too strong can steal an abandoned flop.

any one card straight board like 7 9 10 or 2 3 5.

a 5 6 7 board you flopped a straight but again don't over play it can be up against the nuts.

I like to play more lag style if players I play make mistakes postflop like not valuing their hands correctly. Try to play more hands and get in there when I can get them to make mistakes.

I know its a horrible starting hand by most standards but can be playable if you don't over play them and aware you can have kicker problems.

Like if you flop k 8 7 I will release to a strong bet but if they price me in i might see a turn for the 2 pair or trips draw.

There is also one other factor that rarely gets talked about is the tilt you put on players who see you play these trash hands who are the play by the book types they can go on ridiculous tilt if you get there on a semi bluff with these hands.
For example you flop 5 7 J you check raise this flop. Then bink a 6 on the turn and bet bet. When they see your hand some have gone on monkey tilt and that play pays itself over the course of a sessions immensely..

There is the danger of my post though when you make 2 pair knowing when to release so thus why i posted if other players come into these marginal situations when they know their release point.

100 bb effective my release point is preflop. Start getting deeper, the right opponents, with the right position and we could MAYBE start talking about 3bet bluffing.

@OP I don't understand how you openly acknowledge that smashing the flop still carries serious reverse implied odds issues for your hand yet you still want to call? You're not even factoring the much more likely scenario where you call a raise and mostly just fold the flop, especiall 5 way.

JG that hit it on the head for me.

100bb effective and up playing these trash hands can be viable?

And 3 bet bluffing preflop would be better than just calling multiway to shrink the field and have initiative.

I'm the button in this hand so I thought calling can't be too bad with multiway action and me having position.

I been playing shorthanded and head-ups poker where you can't just wait for the perfect cards all the time and have to play cards where sometimes you have a bad kicker. And you just need to learn how to play these hands better was my thinking, more practice and being able to read situations better?

So do you think this is just not a profitable call because mostly it will be bet and i fold. The times i can win the pot won't make up for calling in these situations?

Against tough opponents I would say playing more solid cards cause we won't have many opportunities to outplay really good players and they're not making many mistakes postflop.

I feel, I may be wrong that calling might be slightly losing play here or breakeven. But the times I put players on tilt by making a play with some garbage holding makes it a +ev play cause they want to play more pots with me and they are playing badly and I stop making semi bluffs vs them and only value bet now. Just my view I may be wrong here cause it feels profitable.

No I don't think 100bb is viable. I don't know where the cutoff would be for suited 3 gappers but your skill relative to the field will also be a significant motivating factor in your decisions.

Thinning the field and having initiative is definitely part of it. Having position is much more important.

The major issue with your hand is not the reverse implied odds, its the fact it just doesn't have a ton of potential for bluffing either. It just does not flop well enough for you to use your positional advantage.

Having a multiway pot only compounds the issue of not being able to successfully bluff often enough.

If you want to get better at shorthanded and heads up play my advice would be to study and play more shorthanded and heads up matches. It's not impossible to practice at 6max tables but why bother if you can actually play shorthanded and heads up? Practicing shorthanded play at anything close to a full ring table is just ludicris. Also just because it's shorthanded or heads up it does not mean we have no criteria that qualifies for what should be in our range.

Three problems with this:
1. You are definitely underestimating the amount of money you spend calling a raise and waiting to flop gin.
2. You're over estimating the frequencey with which you can sucessfully bluff multiway.
3. You still lose some of the time in those reverse implied odds situations you mentioned previously.

Add that all up and the call just seems to be unprofitable to me long term. As far as tilt considerations go it's a difficult thing to really calculate or factor in. Maybe villain doesn't tilt? Maybe it gets you an extra buyin 3% of the time? Who knows. I wouldn't factor it into my decison just like I wouldn't factor in a bad beat jackpot or high hand award into my poker decisions.

I would argue playing against tougher opponents (i.e. good hand readers) putting something like this into a bluffing range would be far and away better than including it in any of your ranges vs fish.

There are probably better candidates against tougher opponents to put into your bluffing range first, but compared to playing fish it would be more reasonable to include something like 8h4h in your bluffing range.

Remember there are different ways to outplay opponents other than bluffing (which I think is what you're referring to when you say outplay here).

See my comments above about factoring in tilt. The problem with feel is that humans are imperfect machines and can't possibly remember correctly the EV of all the times they play a hand a certain way.

Likely what you're doing is thinking 'I play 8h4h here. I am currently running +EV. This means that playing 8h4h here in this way is +EV.' That statement may or may not be true at all. Without a database to sample of every time you've played 8h4h in this manner on the button at these stakes there's just no way to tell.

lol this

I really like what your saying and being aware that playing these hands can be a leak.

But do you think it can be a viable strategy if your aware of it. It adds to the unpredictability to what you can show up with. You don't overplay these trash hands maybe win small pots with them. Then can tighten up after having a loose image. And when you play big pots you always have the goods.

You have to be playing deep 100+bb and have position.

For instance it gets folded to you and your on the button. I will raise ATC to see how you react. Sometimes people just fold and I steal the blinds. Sometimes they call and I play a pot with position. I force them to make a hand. Usually cbet on dry flops and flops I hit steal blinds again. Or I might have a hand when they 3 bet and/or outflop them. When I get resistance I see if they are trying to outplay me or they actually just have a hand. If they have a hand go back to stealing the blinds. If they trying to out play me thats when the fun begins. But usually I'll try to play a bluffy line with the goods to try to get their stack.

I think I've been profitable in this strategy but again winning money and finding leaks in your game is hard to figure out. Like am I losing money in those spots where I call too much where if I stop playing those I would have a higher win rate or do those hands help my image which help my win rate.

Fold to any aggression on any street.

Also give some relevant infos about your hand. Like position.

Open raising the on the button is totally different than over calling. There's no way 84 is ever going to be +EV over calling 5 way getting 4:1 on your money.

Yup this. I may have overspoken when I said it doesn't belong in ANY of your ranges.

I called a min raise I have the button.