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ITT: Post if you studied very hard, yet are not a great poker success ITT: Post if you studied very hard, yet are not a great poker success

03-27-2008 , 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
I haven't achieved great success, I still have a long way to go and any player worth a damn feels the same way.
/end thread.
03-27-2008 , 02:33 AM
some people really aren't very intelligent.

no disrespect to them, as im not of the belief at all that they are somehow "inferior" to someone who is intelligent, or that they are less important as a human being. however, when it comes to something like poker, which requires quick analysis and decision making using logic, probability, etc... i really think there are some people who would not be able to be very successful, regardless of volume/study. or maybe they would just never put themselves in a position TO study often enough. idk.
03-27-2008 , 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McSwizzle
maybe they would just never put themselves in a position TO study often enough. idk.
i'm suggesting stuff like this is the problem 99-1 for every time a 2+2er is not intellectually capable, and with will power you can do great things but you have to put the locus of control upon your actions (studying, br management, focus, creative thought..), and not blame or rest on "well i'm just not talented enough OR i'm a genius i'll be great forever!".
03-27-2008 , 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerAmateur4
.....blame or rest on "well i'm just not talented enough OR i'm a genius i'll be great forever!".
It's only a matter of time before you hear "...because I didn't start playing when I was 7." Same excuses lazy chess players use.
03-27-2008 , 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
It's only a matter of time before you hear "...because I didn't start playing when I was 7." Same excuses lazy chess players use.
god if only i'd been able to play in that 10/20 game at party.
03-27-2008 , 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
I haven't achieved great success, I still have a long way to go and any player worth a damn feels the same way.
hallelujah holla back
03-27-2008 , 06:37 AM
here's my thoughts:

success is definitely dependent on the person. success to some might be just being able to make a living from playing poker. the guy next to him at the tables might be mad he's only making $300/hr when he wants to make $500/hr. so i don't think there's an amount that you can make that determines if you're a success or not, because it's all a state of mind. if people start telling you how successful you are and you start believing it and getting satisfied with it, chances are you will not progress much further.

there is a lot of natural talent in poker. a LOT. some people can pick poker up very quickly, while others work very hard at it. some have the rare combination of both(cts and leatherass come to mind.) If you aren't naturally good at something, you can progress if you're willing to work hard. i'm not a natural poker player. i've had to work very hard to get where i'm at with poker, and personally i'm not at all satisfied because i've set much higher goals for myself. some people are happy with where they are at, and that's totally cool. if you do want to get better than others, you will need to outwork them. not sure how many of you guys read the high stakes forums, but a week or two ago people were posting their sat scores, and i think almost every good high stakes who posted had scores from like 1200-1600. being naturally super smart definitely helps with poker. it's just like anything else though where you can outwork others to achieve the results you're looking for despite sometimes not necessarily starting at the same place as everyone else.

Quote:
Many around here seem to represent a frame of mind that most are destined for mediocrity even if giving it their best.
absolutely. if that's okay with them then it's cool though. a lot of people though will have big dreams, but nothing behind it. they will talk about how sick they want to be, how they want to make so much money, but they don't put in the work to do it. people will look to blame it on others, or that they're just unlucky, etc... but really they won't ever be **** cause they don't work hard.

everyone is probably limited in their own way. if you want to see how good you can get, you need to put maximum effort in even if maximum effort from you won't get you cts results. there's that old saying, "if you shoot for the moon, even if you fail, you'll still be amongst the stars." you might think it's corny, but it's on point. if you bust your ass trying to achieve things you can't achieve, when all is said and done even though maybe you will have failed in your own eyes, you will still be "successful."
03-27-2008 , 06:55 AM
That saying should be shoot for the stars, if you fail, you'll still be amongst the moon, unless you really suck, in which case you might even dig in to the earth some how you failure.
03-27-2008 , 07:05 AM
This post is really relevant to me and is kinda inspiring me to try harder at poker. I'm somewhat relevant to the thread starters post so I'll tell my story. When I first got into poker lots of my friends were making tons of money and I'm similar intelligence level to them so I thought I was guaranteed to make it. 2 years later a few of my friends were millionares and I had just managed to start beating 200 NL.

To get to that level for me I grinded 50 NL for about 2 years (100+ hours a month, prob average of 130 hours) making abotu 15$ an hour. It was really hard to get my roll big enough to move up in stakes, I had tried a couple times and ran bad and had to move down.

The breakthrough happened after a 6 month streak of trying to move up and failing which resulted in me having a 5$ hourly. The pain of those 6 months was incredible for me mentally as I was in a really **** situation in life (no car, small TV + computer my only possessions, no friends, living in middle of nowhere at parents house who were crazy. long story). It was a very dark period for me, I even considered suicide. Eventually I just snapped and got SUPER serious about beating poker. Literally it was either that or just cash out and go work some minimum wage job. I just started trusting myself, studied hard, stopped feeling sorry for myself and tilting, and putting in the hours. I also allowed myself to believe I deserved more than 2k a month (more than my parents ever made) and to stop sabotaging myself when I did well. I basically grew up into a man in that one moment to be honest. The next 2 months I made 3k then 5k and moved out and got my first apartment.

After that moving up to 1/2 was much easier and I started pulling 6-7k months. I got my first bed, recliner, car and got double 21" LCDs and started 8 tabling. Things were going well, the stress of poker and living month to month was finally off me.

My high stakes friend invited me to rent a place with him in scotland I figured sure why not. Sold all my **** and took my 21k roll over there to learn from him & have fun in scotland. Only problem was he ran incredibly bad during this time and lost 100s of k over the 6 months and wasn't really available for coaching. I did manage to switch to 6 max during this period though and move up to 2/4. I had my best month ever (12k) after a bit of struggle moving up to 2/4.

Then party got shutdown and I had to take all my money off and try new sites. All of a sudden the games were MUCH tougher and since I had just gotten used to 2/4 it was very rough. I was down 9k halfway through the month and barely made it back to even. At this point after seeing the new tough games I sort of lost confidence and moved back down to 1/2 figuring I'd just make a living there. I moved back to the USA, bought a new car, tv, furniture, computer, monitors. Everything. Got my roll down to about 12k and just figured I'd live off 1/2 and relax for a while. I was actually very burnt out on poker and let my roll get dangerously low (6k) so I made that period much more stressful on me than I should have.

Well fast forward to now, made 50k the past 2 years without trying very hard at all (600 hours a year). I'm currently 12 tabling on a 30" dell making more than I ever have and I'm looking to build my roll again and give 2/4 another shot. If I could ever beat 5/10 that would be a total dream come true for me but beating 2/4 or 3/6 decently would be awesome as well.

Can I honestly say I gave my absolute best 100% and worked my ass off? No... I guarantee you others worked much harder. It sure as **** wasn't easy for me to get to where I am though. Honestly it was my own mental and emotional issues that I had to deal with though. If I could do it over again I would probably get out of "grinding" mentality and just going for the highest hourly. What I'm going to try to do soon once I have a comfortable roll is lower the amount of tables I'm playing, get a card runners membership, and really start trying to learn the game. I think that's the only way someone like me can move up (2bb/100 1/2 12 tabler).
03-27-2008 , 07:25 AM
Nothing ensures success of course, most people around here who are doing all the right stuff that I mentioned everyday for years are going to get some where great.

So you have all these success stories resulting from hard work, I am basically challenging anyone to say, I studied and played seriously for a few years with my all, here's a 1mil graph of me breaking even at 50nl.

So far out of 2 threads and 80 posts this is the most I've gotten:
"I know two people in real life that studied poker for years, posts on 2+2 etc.
But still can't beat .10\.25
I think what's stopping them is more their drug/alcohol addiction though"

I think it's a pretty strong case for the power of will universally and that we choose our destiny. Let us come together in this moment and help each other to toss aside excuses, better ourselves, and accomplish the adventures that we consider success.

I salute the bold individuals doing their thing in our community here and further beyond:


Eli Bowen-

was born in 1844 with feet attached directly to his pelvis. In other words, he had no legs. He developed strong arms doing farm work and training to start the career of his dreams. At age 13, he became a professional acrobat! His acrobatic act showcased his strength, but he was also known for his handsome appearance. Although he became wealthy, he never retired, continuing to perform until his death in 1924.


Ludwig von Beethoven-

became deaf gradually, beginning in his twenties. He considered it a great tragedy and shame, and was loathe to admit it to those around him. He was profoundly deaf by his mid-forties, but kept composing using a rod to transfer sound from a piano to his jaw.


Lacey Henderson-

Lacey Henderson’s right leg was amputated when she was nine years old due to a tumor in her kneecap. But at her mother’s suggestion, she tried out to become a cheerleader in high school. Not only did she make the team, but she worked her way up to captain! Now she’s 18 and cheers for the University of Denver.

More: http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/13601
03-27-2008 , 07:27 AM
Great post man. Thread is full of win
03-27-2008 , 07:33 AM
AgentIce,

Awesome! Keep doing it homie. I think you have a good perspective currently to keep improving and to eliminate stress.

It's a blessing that you had that period of strife, people who build from the ground up can recall the hard times when they need a reminder to stay humble, hungry, and appreciative as they move on. It can give you the edge in competition and life.

Happiness = Your situation / Your expectations
03-27-2008 , 11:00 AM
AgentIce, join cardrunners as soon as you can. Don't put it off, watch all the videos you can and join other sites. Videos teach you things that would take 100's of hours to figure out yourself in just a couple of hours.
03-27-2008 , 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
god if only i'd been able to play in that 10/20 game at party.
god tell me about it, i so wish i was born 5 years earlier
*drool*
03-27-2008 , 12:22 PM
1. As with anything, hard work and determination can only take you so far (could still be quite far, mind). You need natural talent to take you further.

2. success is individual

Those are the only 2 general points to be made. Elabortions in respect to the hard work have been made, you could go on forever though. However, if you felt you have worked hard and are still not beating relatively soft games, you are doing something wrong.

As for the natural talent part, well for me that's quite complicated to say what you need. Emotional control was mentioned, but that's not necessarily natural talent, you can train yourself in that respect. Intelligence was mentioned, but that's such vague term and tbh I'm not really sure what people mean by it. There are intuitive connotations, but it's all very vague. You can be intelligent in many different areas.

The ones that are important in regards to poker are social/psychological intelligence. I.e. having a sympathetic understanding of people. logical intelligence, there are stories that some people don't understand that if a implies b, and b implies c, then a implies c for example. These guys won't make it in poker. You also need objective intelligence. What I mean by that is the ability to look at yourself objectively, and admit you have faults in everything you do and to swallow your pride when you see those faults, or other people point them out. You can argue that you can teach yourself that, but I honestly think some people don't have that very important attribute (or need a big push in order to realize that they aren't as good as they think). I think it stems from people taking themselves far too seriously. I'd say 90% of poker players think they are much better then they are and won't accept otherwise, try not to be one of them. Lastly, i think you need "heart". Now that's very vague, and I'm probably not articulate enough to explain what I mean. It's a mixture between bravery and determination.

You don't necessarily need to have had acedemic success. I think too much stock is put into it personally and I really hate exams, but I'm not going to go on a rant about that now. if any ukers are reading this and saw the latest apprentice (or watch it here http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/it...l?src=ip_potpw). Nicholas is a good example, i think he'd be a terrible poker player despite the excellent academic success.


As for 2, well not much more can be said, you set your own goals. Whether it's to beat 2nl for 1bb/100 or to be beating the tough high stakes games. If you reach your goals, you are a success.
03-27-2008 , 12:30 PM
what keyser said...most people don't possess the analytical speed to win past a certain level. those people also rarely possess the work ethic to attain it
03-27-2008 , 01:21 PM
I'm gonna take your advice beanos and join cardrunners todday. What other sites are you talking about joining?
03-27-2008 , 01:34 PM
Success in my opinion is measured by ones own gratification. If what you've accomplished makes you feel successful, no one can tell you otherwise. It's personal.

If you measure your own success to that of say Brian Townsend, making the jump from NL50 to NL200 in a year isn't as successful in most peoples minds in comparison to what he's accomplished. That doesn't mean you cannot feel successful from your own accomplishment of jumping from NL50 to NL200 in a year.
03-27-2008 , 02:17 PM
This is more like a lifestyle topic. Anyone who knows how to do well in life will do well in poker is my theory.

Also I agree with unknown on the subject of success.

Success is something which is measured individually. Also success sometimes is clouded by social acceptance of peer pressure.

Like with Asian parents they typically measure success of their children on what jobs they have and what grades they got at school. When you goto work you get measured by your peers on salary. So its only natural in poker for people to measure others in terms of how much money they made.

Creating your own goals again like what unknown says is the key here. If you strive and aim to complete your own goals you will naturally progress as a player. If you keep on trying to measure yourself against your peers you might end up getting dishearten or go into fear of failure mode.

You need to take some risks in poker like in any parts of life.

Goals also don't need to have monetary meaning the goals I find fun others find stupid but it still doesnt stop me from doing them. While poker is fun I will carry on playing when it isnt fun anymore I guess I will stop. Money is just a by-product of success.
03-27-2008 , 03:11 PM
Awesome post/discussion.

1: I think you guys saying that dumb people can't succeed in poker are wrong. Think about guys like Lilholdem- I think he didnt even finish half of high school. I know of a lot of other HS players who readily admit they are not too smart and very bad at math, but they do fine. Maybe their definition of intelligence is skewed.

2: Of course people are never going to be satisfied with their results. I remember in the 2007 graphs thread Christophers was like "man this is barely even worth posting" with his 600k yearly graph. That was because kotkis and Bryce had already posted.

Instead of looking at the guys doing better than you, think about your busto friends making $10/hour. Or go read the micro FR forum or something. Both those things are always good for my self-confidence.
03-27-2008 , 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImsaKidd
Awesome post/discussion.

1: I think you guys saying that dumb people can't succeed in poker are wrong. Think about guys like Lilholdem- I think he didnt even finish half of high school. I know of a lot of other HS players who readily admit they are not too smart and very bad at math, but they do fine. Maybe their definition of intelligence is skewed.
Lilholdem plays tournaments. No one is questioning that ******s can win at those.
03-27-2008 , 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyser.
Lilholdem plays tournaments. No one is questioning that ******s can win at those.
I'm just saying he is successful at the highest tournaments, that probably means there are players similar to him at SSNL/MSNL.
03-27-2008 , 03:46 PM
OP,

Thanks for posting this thread - I really needed it. While I'm normally in USNL, I read SSNL a lot because I feel the discussions are a lot better.

Here's my story, and how I'm planning on turning things around.

I've always considered myself pretty intelligent. 3rd in my class in high school, top 2% for SAT's, etc. However, I have found that the 2% of the population that are more intelligent than me can be a LOT more intelligent

I've been playing poker now for maybe 3 years. I found 2p2, and of my 3000 something posts, I think 90% of them are in OOT or other forums. I'd say only the last year or so I started to take the game seriously.

I've been a break-even type player for a loooong time. I'm currently beating 50nl by a small margin, and make some money from rakeback. I don't play nearly enough, which is a large part of the problem. I put in maybe 5-10k hands a month, and cut a lot of sessions short when I start losing money or end up even.

I think the biggest challenge for me is that I'm SO used to just succeeding without trying that the game pisses me off to no end. I go into auto-pilot, and just assume that they'll hand their money over. The game just isn't that intuitive to me, and I have several other VERY smart friends that struggle with the game as well.

I also think it's an entirely different kind of natural ability - sort of like being a musician.

Let me give an example:

In high school, I played trumpet. I have no musical ability whatsoever, but I completely busted my ass. Practiced almost every day, went through fundamentals, etc.

Of around 40 players, I was probably about the 5th or 6th best by the end of my years there. The 4-5 guys ahead of me had natural talent, and could easily outplay me even if they probably never practiced a second of their lives.

It's all about setting your own personal goals. For me, it was to be good enough to play in the symphony and hold my own.

Poker is sort of like that for me now. I'd just like to be able to work my way up to 1/2 or 2/4 and make 30-100 extra k a year. I don't need to beat the nosebleeds, and probably never could against guys with such excellent gut instincts.

I was about to just say F poker for the hundredth time, but after thinking about it I've put nowhere near enough study into the game.

It's also probably worth noting that we all learn differently. Videos might work well for one person, hand histories for another. I really appreciate everyone on this forum that has donated their time in posting, or directly discussed hands with me over IM (you know who you are).

Anyone up for setting up a regular study session?
03-27-2008 , 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbank
here's my thoughts:

success is definitely dependent on the person. success to some might be just being able to make a living from playing poker. the guy next to him at the tables might be mad he's only making $300/hr when he wants to make $500/hr. so i don't think there's an amount that you can make that determines if you're a success or not, because it's all a state of mind. if people start telling you how successful you are and you start believing it and getting satisfied with it, chances are you will not progress much further.

"
We have a saying in my office that encompasses this...

GOOD is the enemy of GREAT!!!!
03-27-2008 , 04:46 PM
I doubt we'll find anyone that fits the OP's criteria. Analytical skills, emotional management, bankroll management, memory, risk aversion... these can all be trained if someone dedicates enough will and enough hours. How much 'enough' depends on the person.

Learning poker is like learning a language. There are a few people who can pick languages up with ease, but for the rest of us it will take months of concentrated willful studying that is usually painful because it is so vague.

That's where most people mess up. Instead of studying and preparing thoroughly, they go straight to the speaking (playing) part. If you approached a Frenchie and attempted a conversation knowing only 'merde' and 'oui', you'd probably end up getting five fingers to the face. But in poker, people don't say 'what the **** are you talking about?'. Instead, they just take your money.

It's no wonder many grinders are stuck in a rut after countless hours of experience.

      
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