I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots - Small Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots

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11-21-2007 , 12:41 AM

LOwrestling2001

adept

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 948

Villain is 19/15/5 over 264 hands. I checked this flop to induce a bet from a lower PP, i talked to thac about this hand, he said bet/call flop. Turn is a pretty easy fold right?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($131.60)
SB ($60.95)
Hero ($98.50)
UTG ($85.50)
MP ($33.65)
CO ($113.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

, A

.
UTG calls $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $15, UTG folds, Button calls $10.

Flop: ($31.50) 7

, 2

, A

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($31.50) T

(2 players)
Hero bets $16.5, Button raises to $40, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $64.50

11-21-2007 , 12:45 AM

Fat Nicky

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6,359

awful fold. you're line looks super weak.

also, bet the flop most of the time.

11-21-2007 , 12:47 AM

LOwrestling2001

adept

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 948

so as played, are we calling turn and bombing safe river? as shoving turn would just fold out worse hands?

11-21-2007 , 12:50 AM

Golfdish

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,838

I like a bet on the flop, balance your range for when you 3b light from the blinds and miss.

Bet more on turn (24-26), makes it alot easier to give up if you get RR + you prob get called by any A after checking the flop.

11-21-2007 , 12:52 AM

early325

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,192

b/c $20 on the flop, and i shove turn

11-21-2007 , 12:54 AM

terp

Carnal \ 'Knowledge

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 14,780

20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

11-21-2007 , 01:29 AM

Xanta

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,696

Bet call flop fo sho, a pair of aces is more or less the nuts in a 3bet pot. How are you gonna cbet with air if you never bet the effective third or fourth nuts here?

As played both shoving turn and calling and never folding the river (possibly donkbetting) are OK methinks.

11-21-2007 , 01:33 AM

Rollos

adept

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,155

Flop is a really standard bet, you have to bet this flop with an ace to balance your range since you more than likely fire this flop a large % of the time with air.

As played I can't let it go, shove.

11-21-2007 , 01:52 AM

BanZaY

old hand

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,517

always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

11-21-2007 , 01:57 AM

#10

markuisis

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,453

bet/call flop and bet bigger on the turn. As played it just depends on what u think his 3bet calling range is against u in position, if u think it could include hands like aj, kq, kj or qj then I think u have to get it in because ur line is too weak. However, if u think its only pps, stuff like j10s, 109s or good aces then its unlikely hes value betting worse or turning a made hand like those into bluffs, so folding isnt bad.

11-21-2007 , 02:57 AM

#11

Xanta

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,696

Quote:

always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

11-21-2007 , 02:59 AM

#12

markuisis

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,453

Quote:

always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

ya i agree, it seems like ppl get this one idea stuck in their head like u need to 3bet a lot and then do it at every possible opportunity, against competent players 3betting a lot and auto c-betting is suicidal

11-21-2007 , 03:01 AM

#13

Donkey-Milker

banned

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639

i raise here. expecting a call... but TT or perhaps 77 are the only hands we lose to that i would not be surprised to see..

maybe A10.. but he still bets flop imo. get it in.

11-21-2007 , 03:02 AM

#14

early325

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,192

Quote:

always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

3betting a lot and then not c-betting is spewing

11-21-2007 , 03:03 AM

#15

Alobar

Born Ready

Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 40,926

Quote:

20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

How is shoving good? Whats he calling our shove with that we are ahead of? If hes value raising this turn we are dead, and if he was bluffing isnt he now just folding?

11-21-2007 , 03:06 AM

#16

Donkey-Milker

banned

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639

imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

11-21-2007 , 03:07 AM

#17

early325

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,192

Quote:

20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

How is shoving good? Whats he calling our shove with that we are ahead of? If hes value raising this turn we are dead, and if he was bluffing isnt he now just folding?

he probably isn't folding any combo draw

11-21-2007 , 03:10 AM

#18

Alobar

Born Ready

Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 40,926

Quote:

imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

Quote:

he probably isn't folding any combo draw

what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

11-21-2007 , 03:12 AM

#19

Xanta

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,696

Quote:

20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

How is shoving good? Whats he calling our shove with that we are ahead of? If hes value raising this turn we are dead, and if he was bluffing isnt he now just folding?

Yeah I changed my mind, and hand that is calling a turn shove that we beat is also calling a river donkbet, as well as a little more of his range (he might be raising KK,QQ here since us not cbetting is a little odd for an ace). I call turn, but I never get to this spot in the first place.

11-21-2007 , 03:13 AM

#20

Xanta

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,696

Quote:

imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

Quote:

he probably isn't folding any combo draw

what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

Kinda like his line with AJ, A9. The raise is small enough that he could get value out of a lot of hero's range. Also the combo draw comment is a little silly, that's a tiny tiny fraction of his range.

11-21-2007 , 03:14 AM

#21

Dire

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 8,581

Quote:

always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

You 3-bet to 12BB. Pot of ~25BB. C-BET for about 15BB. 27BB invested. If caller is shoving anytime he hits anything and folding otherwise, then it's actually easy money for the 3-bettor. The caller misses the flop completely about 60% of the time, and the 40% of the time he shoves - villain is the one with a generally easy decision - only having to call the extra 73BB a fraction of the time to show a healthy overall profit.

I agree cbetting 100% of flops is exploitable - but not nearly as easily/profitably as you described.

11-21-2007 , 03:16 AM

#22

Alobar

Born Ready

Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 40,926

Quote:

imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

Quote:

he probably isn't folding any combo draw

what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

Kinda like his line with AJ, A9. The raise is small enough that he could get value out of a lot of hero's range

ok, but even so, how likely are AJ or A9? Both from a combination standpoint give 2 of the aces are out, and also from a he called our 3 bet standpoint. And if AJ A9 are likely, so is AT. And even if he is playing those hands that way, does it make up enough of his range for the shove (hes gotta call the shove with AJ or A9 as well too) to be +EV? (and not only be +EV, but a higher EV than a different line)

11-21-2007 , 03:17 AM

#23

early325

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,192

Quote:

imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

Quote:

he probably isn't folding any combo draw

what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

i think QJss, QKss, JTss, KJss, 9Tss are in his range, we 3bet PF but it wasn't massive.

11-21-2007 , 03:22 AM

#24

Xanta

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,696

early, those hands fold some % of the time and bet the flop with the fd some % of the time, both of which are pretty healthy percentages. It makes that part of his range pretty small imo. It seems a little odd that he wouldn't semibluff the flop but he's happily semibluff-raising the turn when he picks up 4 more outs?

Alobar, I wasn't defending the turn shove, I just think that discounting AJ,A9 from his range here is incorrect.

11-21-2007 , 03:27 AM

#25

Alobar

Born Ready

Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 40,926

Quote:

imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

Quote:

he probably isn't folding any combo draw

what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

i think QJss, QKss, JTss, KJss, 9Tss are in his range, we 3bet PF but it wasn't massive.

Thats only 5 combos, there are more than that many combos of TT and 77. And lets not forget that those combo draws also have 30% equity against us. Even if you have him calling with AJ and A9, we have less than 50% equity....so hes gotta call this shove with like JJ before its a good play

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