Either this, or just shoving over the top for the $35 stack? BTN is folding the vast majority of the time when i 4bet here. Is the line i took good or bad for what reason?

SB - Shortstack 69/14 over 19 hands=/
BTN - 31/14 over 19 hands

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 774216
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $199.05
BTN: $109.35
SB: $25.85
BB: $100.00
UTG: $134.90

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is CO with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to $3, BTN calls $3, SB raises to $10, 1 fold, Hero calls $7, BTN calls $7

Flop: ($31.00) 8 2 7 (3 players)
SB bets $15.85 all in, Hero calls $15.85, BTN calls $15.85

Turn: ($78.55) 4 (3 players - 1 is all in)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $42, BTN raises to $83.50 all in, Hero calls $41.50

River: ($245.55) K (3 players - 2 are all in)

The only thing that i would change now is to re-raise the shove on the flop to something like 37? So BTN can still come along with worse? What do you guys think about that?

line is good.

sucks if he has u beat, but the play is v good.

I agree, nh

I'd raise the flop because you wouldn't want the button to be drawing cheaply to a better hand.

Most of the time he is drawing 0-5 outs, FD is pretty much the worst case scenario and even it has only 8 outs (and we have a redraw when he hits). The fact that we have Ad also makes FDs a bit less likely. By raising the flop you just make all hands with less than 20% equity fold and pretty much only get it in against sets or FDs.


What do you think about turn betsizes, should/could we bet even smaller?

we could, I dont think it matter tooooo much though. If we do, like 28 is probably best

This guy looks pretty fishy and is probably never folding top pair to a raise, let alone possibility he has a smaller over pair. You cold called the 3 bet to keep him in the pot now try and win all of his money in case he has something.

am i reading wrong or r u people saying its ok 2 flat aa oop in a multiway pot???!!!??? I must be lol bad at this game then

Nothing wrong with flatting a 3bet oop to keep a donk in.

u have to weight the liklihood of him having a draw with the liklihood of him having a weak made hand that will peel if u call but fold if u raise.

nh, imo. No way can you fold for less than a min-raise on the turn with the pot that big.

shove the turn

Stop posting on my hands dude.... You need to move down in stakes for advicing people. Every post you make is wrong....

Playing poker by applying general rules like this without thinking about how to make the most money in the hand is what makes you lol bad at this game.

nh, id just shove the turn though

this is a bit surprising to me.
Clearly button has odds to call with pps and play fit of fold on the flop (cos you're gonna stack off almost always).
But i guess this is a small part of his range and suited connectors/1gappers, highcards and Axs will make bad preflop calls?

It's a bit suprising to me too, but if we assume the shortstack is never folding, then we accoplish nothing by raising pf because our goal should be to build a big pot with the big stack, who will resqueeze a lot with pp's.

I don't know about just calling preflop - it is kind of hard to say in this spot. I guess if you have a read that hes a total station with top pair no matter what then this is good. The real problem is that the short stacker is going to be all in every time, so btn will know that if you're shoveling money into the pot you always have it. He can be very confident folding all of his weaker one pair hands.

You're giving him 3.5:1 on his preflop call and he obviously has huge implied odds for the times he hits. IE: His preflop call is only a small mistake, but that assumes 0 implied odds. If you made a small 4b he is still coming along with a ton of hands you dominate (probably AK, AQs and 10s+, which you have like 80%+ equity against), and folds out low PPs and suited connectors that are going to fold the flop or turn when they miss. All you've done with your preflop call is give him odds to suck out - if he has JJ in this spot and you take the small 4bet line, you probably stack him anyway. With your line you are stacking basically the same hands that mine does and you win 7 more dollars most of the time, but you lose a huge pot a decent amount of the time.

If the guy was a really, really huge fish (like VPIP > 50) I like the call, otherwise this is not good.

Alright I am really surprised so many guys are saying the preflop call isn't bad (as opposed to a 4bet) so I am really going to nerd out the stove a little bit. Obviously this is nowhere close to perfect - it does not really consider all the different board textures you might encounter. Nor does it consider the times he might call flop but fold turn, etc. But it should give us some kind of (very) rough estimate compared to everyone just kind of bantering.

If you raise, the third guy folds (assume 95% of the time he folds) and you're against the short stacker ev:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 83.377% 82.25% 01.12% 83096684 1135814.00 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 16.623% 15.50% 01.12% 15657624 1135814.00 { 77+, AQs+, AQo+ }

You win $30 83% of the time, net +$25
You lose $26 17% of the time, -$4.42
totals $20.50 95% of the time, +19.5

If you shove and the third guy calls (about 5% of the time he calls),

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.277% 67.96% 02.31% 940909444 32043602.33 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 14.260% 12.38% 01.88% 171434480 25986374.33 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 15.464% 14.77% 00.70% 204429788 9657851.33 { 77+, AQs+, AQo+ }

You win $137 70% of the time, net +$96
You lose 109 14% of the time, net -$15
You win 57 15% of the time, +$8
totals +$89 5% of the time, +4.5


Thus you are making $24 when you shove preflop.

-

If you just call preflop then:

I am going to assume the button's calling range preflop is something like 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo+, KJo+ [This is 20% of hands], which he never folds preflop.

Lets say his flop continuing range is QQ+,88-77 ,22,AdKd,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad9d,Ad8d,Ad7d,Ad6d,Ad5d,A d4d,Ad3d,Ad2d,KdQd,KdJd,KdTd,QdJd,QdTd,JdTd,Jd9d,T 9s,Td8d,9d8d,87s,65s, or 25% of his preflop calling range

For the sake of simplicity, I am going to assume that he makes his decision to "go with" his hand on the flop or not. Thus, you get folds on the flop about 3/4ths of the time, and your new EV is effectively the old 20.50 + 7 dollars from his preflop call. So 3/4s of the time on this board your EV is 27.50, net ~$20.5.

1/3rd of the time your ev is

Hand 0: 47.126% 45.94% 01.19% 802266 20745.00 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 39.490% 38.81% 00.68% 677727 11935.50 { QQ+, 88-77, 22, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, QdJd, QdTd, JdTd, Jd9d, T9s, Td8d, 9d8d, 87s, 65s }
Hand 2: 13.383% 12.83% 00.55% 224037 9691.50 { 77+, AQs+, AQo+ }

47% of the time you win $137, net +$64
39% of the time you lose $109, net -42
13% of the time you win $57, net +$7
totals +$29 * 1/4 = ~7.5

Thus, on this particular flop, your EV of all the possibilities is $28, compared to the shove preflop's profit of $24. This is all very rough for the reasons I mentioned in the beginning of the post. If the board is something like K72r, you'd expect the value of your slow play to increase, but if the board came out 3 straight with a flush draw, then you'd expect the value of your slowplay to go down a lot. All in all it is a very close spot I'd say between the preflop shove and the slowplay. Maybe someone can improve upon what I've done - this isn't anywhere near close to perfect.

tldr: To my surprise, the preflop slowplay, using my very rough way of estimating, will show a $4 increased profit over a 4bet. If someone has a better way of figuring this out (that is still somewhat efficient) then please show me - I'd really like to know.

if ur not insta clicking this back ur welcome 2 my games