In 6-max NL, I think that most people on this board just call or check-call OOP when they flop something like TPTK or TPGK on a dry flop, and I think this is usually correct, because if we frequently raise with these hands, we are usually beat when called and fold out hands that we beat on the flop. But is there any positive expectation for raising these hands for metagame?

I remember a post maybe a couple weeks or a month ago on this board, about a situation that came up where the OP had an 8 in his hand, and the flop was a dry 8-high. I dont remember the exact post, but there was some disagreement in that post about if raising there was good some of the time. I recorded the words of a response post that advocated raising the 8 on the board some of the time- its a play that I rarely or never make right now, but the reasoning the poster gave made sense:

"I will reiterate it for those that still think a flop bet is limited to the value one gains by the call he extracts exclusively. Raising may get him to SD cheaper. Raising may allow for a free card that will give him a definite best hand instead of a speculative one. Raising does gain value from the aforementioned hands and those who believe a 25/20 over a 121 hands will never call are sorely mistaken. Raising will make you much more difficult to play against in future hands where you raise and allow you to either gain more value on your winners or gain more respect for your bluffs depending on his reaction to it."

Do you agree or disagree about this post made and why? Are there any other reasons why raising with TPTK or TPGK on a dry flop is good or not? Do you think, in general, that raising TP on dry flops should be used on regs and donks or just one or the other, if at all?

yea there are some merits but you need to have an opponent who is able to read hands well enough to spazz out and either

a.) overplay his hand trying to bluff you
b.) call down light b/c he realizes ur range is polarized b/w sets + air

example:

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $118.60
Hero (BB): $295.40
UTG: $20.75
CO: $203.60
BTN: $74.45

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K T
3 folds, SB raises to $6, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12.00) Q 7 K (2 players)
SB bets $8, Hero raises to $16, SB raises to $36, Hero calls $20

Turn: ($84.00) Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($84.00) 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Ha. I am the poster that uttered those words and stand by them. The discussion in that thread was interesting until I was trolled and stopped posting in it. Here is the thread...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=156344

One major difference between my statement/s and Nazahls hand is that in the first thread the board was much dryer then the one above. When playing a raised pot, it is (obviously) far more likely that the K and/or Q hit someones range in one respect or another, whereas on an 872r flop it is quite likely that many/most players missed it. Also, when you hold TPGK where TP is a middle pair, you are FAR more vulnerable to either getting bluffed out on later streets, lose your action, or get drawn out on then when you hold a higher pair. So in that thread, I voiced to raise for value/protection/possible cheaper showdown/etc...

In Nazahls hand the dynamics are much different. Here, it is a BvB. Here, TP is a K allowing for only one card to 'outpair' us. Here, there are more hands that can legitimately continue with since the TP can be held with literally any kicker given that the SB opened, whereas the smaller the pair the more likely the kicker is secluded to a handful of cards (usually an A or one card above/below the pair).

Now there was debate as to whether raising essentially turns your hand into a bluff or not. 2 things to this. One is, if you plan on calling a raise or future bets, then it can't be a bluff. Second, if you want to create some metagame with your opponent then making this raise will seem unconventional to him and create it. Maybe you are on 4 other tables with him and expect to mix it up across the board. Maybe you want to set him up to valuestack himself later by making thin bets and raises which will allow for either inducing later and/or having him call you lightly on future bets.

Sometimes you will fold to any heat either on that street or any later one. So the times you turn your made hand into a bluff can still be fine. The reason is that sometimes it is best you make a -EV play on one street in order to avoid an even more -EV spot on future streets. Whitelime made a post about this concept a while ago (if someone wants to attempt to find the link that would be awesome) and I have touched on in a handful of my posts throughout the years.

A quick example would be if you open from MP with A7s and get the BTN to call (100bb eff stacks). The flop comes out 743r (none of your suit). Do you lead out? Go for a c/r? How will you react to being raised if you lead? Will a c/r be a bluff? My point, is that this is a marginal spot that may be handled best by turning your hand into a bluff. I mean, if you c/r what worse hands are calling besides 1 or 2 hands? Yet a c/r may just end the hand and possibly miss out on future EV in order to gain the EV that is already there for you (and not lose it).

I know I am not expressing myself well here. I wish I could do a better job. Hopefully you get some semblence of what I am trying to say. When I am not so ****ing high I may take another stab at explaining my thought process (if that is ok with manupod ofcourse )

I think you're mixing up different situations and perhaps incorrectly labeling them as "raising on dry flop". I might be wrong tho', let see...

When reading the title I thought this was going to be a post about 2 betting KJ on K72 type of boards and I agree with what nazhal said, if you think your opponent will spazz out, go for it. Works like a charm when they do it to me (esp. on paired boards)
But then you refer to that 8xx flop thread where we coldcalled button with 8x or something and flopped TP. Well that is a whole other situation, there reasons why we could raise a pair of eights there is for protection and to take the initiative so play on later streets will be easier etc. etc. (Well the guy you quoted did a much better job explaining the merrits of raising)

And you also say we check/call TPTK on dry boards OOP (meaning we don't c-bet right?) Again a different situation than the two above.

Just think about the range he will call with and the range he'll fold with and think about your hand. Is it a hand we want to play a big pot with on later streets? Against some players one pair is a big pot hand against others not obv.

edit;looks like jlocdog already said everything I said

Thanks for the responses. I think i understand what youre trying to say jloc. in the A7s example you gave, would you be frequently turning your hand into a bluff in that situation, or only a low percentage of the time to mix it up?

yeah Clause, i actually meant check-calling TP without the iniative, calling from the blinds pre but i didn't make that clear.

In the A7s example that I offered, it is not about a frequency of how often I bet vs raise here. It is opponent dependent and my decision will be guided by recent game dynamic as well as any history I may have with him.

I can only speak for myself but I personally don't like to induce with vulnerable holdings. And keep in mind that there are 'vulnerabilty' degrees. Holding trips on a 3 flush board is different from holding a straight on a paired board which is different from holding TP on a low board...

All that being said, in the A7s hand I much prefer a c/r for numerous reasons (this is not to say that I don't take other lines sometimes...).