It just seems whenever I get KK (and observe other players with KK) and another deep stack plays back at me pf then we get to a point where an all-in is appropriate the villian always has AA if he calls. The frustrating part is Ive seen players fold their QQ to my KK pf when I playback at them and even fold KK to my AA, and these guys arent exactly rocks either and I tend to be LAG.

Has online competition become that much better that KK vs AA pf is not considered to be coolered situation anymore, and folding KK pf should be standard if you get played back by another deep stack?

219 bbs is the cutoff. anything lower is a cooler

is 219 the actual cutoff ? was wondering about that today. Would it depend on the # of people at the table ?

where did you get 219 from?

if you can't get KK in pre-flop profitably then that is the exact opposite of suggesting that online competition has got 'better'.

400 bbs and we'll talk

219 is in super system

FYP. Mathematics of poker say something like 800BB is game theory optimal for HU - may be off on this can't remember exact number. In 6 max its 264BB imo

Get it in happy unless the villain has like a 1% 3-bet over 1000 hands.


I guess you could call me the payoff king with KK.

But that book is only talking about live play, for online play the stack sizes should be much lower, no?

There are no unexploitable strategies for 3+ player games. And the HU number is probably for the raise/fold game, the real number should be lower.

What is 219 bbs?? Do you mean big blinds? And why that number??

this, at least for online and 6m

it's called a cooler and it happens sometimes but 200 and lower you should be super happy to get it all in the middle pre with KK assuming their stats arn't something like 6/1 over 300 hands

The first sticky on this forum says- " 'Should I fold KK preflop?' - for the love of god, just don't." I cant see how anyone could get good enough to fold KK preflop profitably long term. I also cant see this being a big leak in anyone's game. Even if someone is super tight, they might decide to shove with AK, or QQ because they are card dead and that's the best hand they've seen all day (and you'll suck out 20% of the time that they do have aces). Maybe you are just looking at too small a sample size.

If people are scared to get it in with QQ or KK, then just bomb pots preflop with any Ax and get tons of folds. The blocker makes AA less likely and gives you some equity if villains are hero calling with KK.

If they were card dead they wouldnt have such a deep stack in the first place and if what they are doing is showing a profit they couldnt possibly be mentally frustrated to shove it all-in without either KK or AA.

WTF is going on in this thread? Who is leveling who?

waow,

You're a ****ing donk with this 219bb bull****. Why would you spew such horrid advice? If you've been playing poker for long enough that you feel qualified to post in this thread then you should at least get your math right.

Obviously you haven't calculated for the Frequency of Unknowns in the Calculation of Kings - Methodology Empirical. Making the correct answer 292. Get your **** together, bro.

getting kk in for 250 bb pf at 100NL is just off the wall bad. and i know i will get flamed for this. but it is. just so bad.

disagree. 100% of my play is 200bb+ @100nl and i've quite profitably gotten QQ/AK+ aipf.

if you can't profitably get QQ/AK+ in for 200bb's you shouldn't be playing deepstacked.

Wires, nh.

No, it isn't always right to put all your chips in with KK pf if you can.

In before thread becomes utterly devoid of any actual strategic content... er, damn, never mind...

.

I am convinced that situations where we profitably could laydown KK preflop (before getting it in) are so ridiculously rare that they shouldn´t markably influence our long-term profit, but ...

... can you elaborate on this?? We´re talking about preflop, aren´t we? You talk as there were 1,001 ways of getting a 200bb stack into the middle but I see only very few different possibilities (with some slight variances). So where´s the difference between those who are able to do it profitably and those who don´t?? Or do you mean (after I thought about it) that those who can´t simply play too nitty preflop and therefore turn their cards face-up? (I think I got what you mean, I almost pull my question back ... at work, so I needed a bit longer ).

By the way - no offense, but are you actually sure that you show a longterm profit by getting it in (and I actually mean "getting it in preflop", not shoving and Villain folding) with QQ solely?? That would in fact surprise me ... would you mind to post a graph just for QQ and in-fact all-in-situations preflop 200bb deep? Seriously interested in this point.

- Tack -

None of you can be serious.