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AK on paired board AK on paired board

04-09-2010 , 06:37 PM
Live $1/$3 NL

I have $270 and get dealt A K in CO

2 limpers

I make it $12, button, SB and BB fold, both limpers call (pot is $40)

Flop is 5 5 9

Check, check, I bet $15

1 caller (pot is now $70)

Turn is A

Checked to me and I bet $25

Other player goes all in for the $25 + $120 more. He has been very aggressive since joining the table and has shown down a pretty wide range of hands

What’s my play?
04-09-2010 , 09:02 PM
Without sounding overly critical, why bet the turn?
You need a plan before you bet, saying if I bet and he shoves what do I do?
You want some pot control and if you check the turn he bets less on the river and you see his hand for less.
90% of the times he has the 5, so as played I fold.
Next time check and call a bet under $40.
See how he plays in the future few rounds.
It is okay to fold winners once in a while.
But what is your image/style?
04-09-2010 , 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Whiz
Without sounding overly critical, why bet the turn?
You need a plan before you bet, saying if I bet and he shoves what do I do?
You want some pot control and if you check the turn he bets less on the river and you see his hand for less.
90% of the times he has the 5, so as played I fold.
Next time check and call a bet under $40.
See how he plays in the future few rounds.
It is okay to fold winners once in a while.
But what is your image/style?
turn is a bet 100% of the time against unknown. why would you ever advocate not betting?

this guy being a live fish with ~50bbs and we bet 1/3 pot makes this a call all day
04-10-2010 , 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trial0r
turn is a bet 100% of the time against unknown. why would you ever advocate not betting?

this guy being a live fish with ~50bbs and we bet 1/3 pot makes this a call all day
So he bets $145 all in and you call and he shows 45, 56, A5, 57, take your pick? You call because you think he has a 9? Or he is bluffing?

I advocate not betting because when you check and the pot is $40, he now bets $35/$40 and it is easier call if you want or you feel less committed and can let it go. Or if he goes all in it seems too much of an overbet and you put him on the 5 and since there is only $40 there it is an easier laydown.

Villain has been aggressive and shown down a wide range of hands, means he does not have TT or A2 on the board and no draw on the flop, other than the gutshot.

If you like the call, fine.
04-10-2010 , 04:09 AM
You can make it 18 pf and think everyone still calls with their dominated hands but whatev. I just don't think any of these guys will also fold 44/66/98/9T but fold out AT/A8/KJ/KT type hands, so i'd check on that reasoning alone, but cbetting isn't bad and probably standard. On turn pot is 70 and he has 145 so I don't think you want to be betting anything that makes him want to shove over unless you plan on calling, this would be the epitome of wasting a hand imo. Checking behind and calling/raising a river bet, (get the bets of his aggression). This being live you rarely see a bluff and the pot is large enough that you can get it all in on one street. So you wanna get value from Ax and hopefully 9x, I think checking achieves both and induces a weird bluff sometimes. Betting like 50 and calling if he's a maniac is chill too but if he's the type of guy thats aggro post and playing ATC preflop checking is even better cuz he always bluffs river and u reduce damage from 5x
04-10-2010 , 04:14 AM
As played its an easy call imo, your turn bet looks so weak and looks scared of the A, definitely is an inducing bet size. he shoves worse A's here for value against this bet size and fd's maybe? but its def a call.
04-10-2010 , 05:04 AM
Call. I'm sorry that he had 5x.
04-10-2010 , 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Whiz
So he bets $145 all in and you call and he shows 45, 56, A5, 57, take your pick? You call because you think he has a 9? Or he is bluffing?

I advocate not betting because when you check and the pot is $40, he now bets $35/$40 and it is easier call if you want or you feel less committed and can let it go. Or if he goes all in it seems too much of an overbet and you put him on the 5 and since there is only $40 there it is an easier laydown.

Villain has been aggressive and shown down a wide range of hands, means he does not have TT or A2 on the board and no draw on the flop, other than the gutshot.

If you like the call, fine.

My mistake the pot is $70 not $40 when the turn comes out. It depends on the player, the marginal/loose players seem to always have the 5, the bad players cannot fold any A, competent players might see the turn for one bet of $15 and folf if you bet the turn.

More often than not I see the 5 there and it looks like OP fell in love with AK, my opinion..
04-10-2010 , 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Whiz
Without sounding overly critical, why bet the turn?
04-10-2010 , 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinz
I don't know how to interpret this?

If OP is underbetting flop and turn to NOT represent the A here it is a no brainer, call the all in.

I am thinking he is putting the villain on a 5 and he does not know what to do. He bet the turn and now is confused. Put up your symbols here Chinz.

To my original answer check the turn and makes the river play easier. If you disagree, "use your words"...
04-10-2010 , 10:10 AM
don't be so afraid, get the money in asap!

You can check turn, but not because you're scared but just to give him an opportunity to gladly bet his worse aces/air on the river. But the sizing of the bet on the turn is also nice to induce. I'd also raise bigger pre flop.
04-10-2010 , 10:47 AM
Snap call. Hes prob not folding A high on flop.
04-10-2010 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Whiz
I don't know how to interpret this?

If OP is underbetting flop and turn to NOT represent the A here it is a no brainer, call the all in.

I am thinking he is putting the villain on a 5 and he does not know what to do. He bet the turn and now is confused. Put up your symbols here Chinz.

To my original answer check the turn and makes the river play easier. If you disagree, "use your words"...
Poker is about maximising your ev not making plays that make things easier. Turn is a bet because we have the best hand probably close to 90% of the time and people hate to fold.
04-10-2010 , 04:28 PM
Thanks for the advice guys
04-10-2010 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicReynolds
Poker is about maximising your ev not making plays that make things easier. Turn is a bet because we have the best hand probably close to 90% of the time and people hate to fold.
You have 1 pair. You play the whole hand not each street in a vacuum. My experience is the villain has a 5 here. I would bet the pot on the flop and if called then I know villain has a 5. The $15 looks like OP missed the flop.

OP what was your thought process?
04-10-2010 , 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Whiz
You have 1 pair.
No, he has 2 pair.

Anyway, I agree with you that betsizing by OP is bad (on both street) but turn is the easiest valuebet ever... and in addition to that if we are not valuebetting strong 9s and better for value on that turn, our turn betting range is ridiculously unbalanced.

I wouldn't be so worried about balance at smallstakes lives game, but THERE'S TOO MUCH VALUE TO NOT BET. Against shortstack we are always playing for stacks here anyway, and I think bet-bet-betting yourself keeps his range for stacking off lightest possible.

If we start check-calling, he may check back hands he would've called with, but will always valuebet better hands.
04-11-2010 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Whiz
You have 1 pair. You play the whole hand not each street in a vacuum. My experience is the villain has a 5 here. I would bet the pot on the flop and if called then I know villain has a 5. The $15 looks like OP missed the flop.

OP what was your thought process?
Once I made my hand on the turn I was trying to bet an amount that might get action from hands like 77, 88, T9, 89 and that might induce a raise if the villain had an Ace. At the time I wasn’t thinking about having an exit plan if I faced resistance since the villain wasn’t that deep. But I can see how sizing the turn bet so small costs me money if I can’t get a hand like AJ or AT all-in on the river (would look pretty unnatural for me to bet $12, $15, $25, and then $120, even though that last bet would be pot-sized).

I often won’t cbet into more than one player live at the low limits. Looked like a good cbet board though so I took a shot at it. In retrospect $15 was def too small.

I guess betting more pf was also a possibility but I like to keep a standard pf raise that’s on the smaller side for a number of reasons.

I clearly made some mistakes in the hand. But I’m not sure if betting $40 on the flop and getting action ensures that the villain has a 5. Maybe online it’s different but in live low limit games in Vegas you see a much wider range of hands call a pot sized bet there.
04-11-2010 , 04:43 PM
1) You got action and induced a raise.

2) There are no draws on the flop so if someone calls $40 I assume he has a 5, and if he has any other hands that have you beat, such as TT he should raise. You may have run into A9 but that is just bad luck. I assumed you folded?
04-11-2010 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Whiz
1) You got action and induced a raise.

2) There are no draws on the flop so if someone calls $40 I assume he has a 5, and if he has any other hands that have you beat, such as TT he should raise. You may have run into A9 but that is just bad luck. I assumed you folded?
I did get action and a raise. But afterward I started wondering if I’d played the hand incorrectly (hence this thread). I couldn't fold there they way I’d played the previous streets since my turn bet looked weak. But as you suspected, the villain showed me 45 and I was beat.

I do think I played the hand wrong, but not necessarily because of the outcome. Against a villain that I had some data on or that I knew was solid, then your strategy of just checking the turn and seeing what he does on the river makes sense. But against a largely anonymous guy in Vegas who’s been playing pretty erratically then I think I have to bet TPTK for value there.

At live $1/2 and $1/3 in Vegas you see pot sized flop calls there (from poor players) with a lot of hands that I can beat on the turn (89, 9T, 88, 77, 66, J9s, 79s, sometimes even AQ, AJ, or AT). I agree that TT or better usually raises that flop.

      
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