So I raise to 3 big blinds with 98s from 3 off the button, SB raises to 9bb, I call.

Flop is QTJ r.

Assuming I have a tight image, how am I supposed to make money off this hand? If he doesn't have AK himself, he's going to be worried that I do.

Similarly, a JTX flop may not be a lot better than a gutshot.

This has to cut your implied odds quite a bit. Thoughts?

Obviously alot of finding a line here is villian dependent. I think this flop hits so many of his hands, so I don't see why you think you would have trouble making money. I mean, if villain is a standard tag, his 3bet range from sb much of the time is AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT, which is paying you off everytime. I think he is leading into you like 90% of the time, so I'd flat call most of the time depending on villain, trying to build the pot on a safe turn.

bet/3bet. Lots of bad turns so personally I'm trying as hard as I can to get it all in on the flop unless SB is a nit and would only get it in with AK. If he has AK it's a cooler and you're losing a buy-in. If he checks, bet like 3/4 the pot and if he bets out raise to about 3x his bet

if he is VERY loose preflop and K9 is a likelyhood then i might play it slower

wat? he's felting with TT+ and AQ there like 1 billion percent

Guys you didn't get my question. I wasn't asking how to play the hand, I was just pointing out that I think 98s sucks... And that I think 54s is better in many situations.

I dont raise preflop and then I fold to his 3bet, but I'm a nit.
How bad / good are my folds ?

Open-folding 98s OTB is terribad.

He is 3 OTB !

Soon2bepro,

"Guys you didn't get my question. I wasn't asking how to play the hand, I was just pointing out that I think 98s sucks... And that I think 54s is better in many situations."

Please explain to me how you have come to this.

edit to add- I would just say that all hands have their time and place and thinking along the lines you propose is treacherous.

Soon2be, i disagree


89s >>>>>>>>>>>>> 45s on QJTr

Dude, do you want to lay odds on 45s vs 98s or this thread is just a joke?

98s > 54s ofc

As I said, in tight games people have AK and expect AK too much and I think this makes 98 lose a substantial part of it's value.

In loose games on the other hand, people don't have and don't expect AK as much, and also you're going to win big sometimes by having the higher straight with 98, which will never happen with 54.

Plus in tight games, pairing your 9 or 8 isn't going to be a lot different than pairing your 5 or 4.

rofl

Soon2,

"As I said, in tight games people have AK and expect AK too much and I think this makes 98 lose a substantial part of it's value.

In loose games on the other hand, people don't have and don't expect AK as much, and also you're going to win big sometimes by having the higher straight with 98, which will never happen with 54.

Plus in tight games, pairing your 9 or 8 isn't going to be a lot different than pairing your 5 or 4."

This makes no sense. People have AK in all games. Equally distributed. How individuals choose to play it may differ but that has no bearing on its frequency. And sure the ass end of a straight is always vulnerable. That doesn't mean that it doesn't contain value though. I would much rather have 98 on a QJT board then any hand in the deck barring AK or K9. Acknowledging that you have to tread lightly when you hold the ass side is not ground breaking. And don't think that you don't get a ton of action from many inferior hands. In fact in your example, I love 98 because I will get played with from a handful of worse, TT,JJ,QQ,QJ,JT,QT,AQ,KQ just to name a few. We are 58-42 over those hands plus AK and K9s. That is a more then reasonable range.

Why in a looser game do we now hold the higher end more often? Flopping a straight over straight on a the flop is rare. How can 54 never be held over? What if the 678 flops? And saying pairing a 9/8 is equivalent to pairing a 5/4 is yet another very broad statement that only serves to direct you down the wrong path.

This thread will do you no service and no favors. You are not thinking about poker in a productive way with this school of thought. Infact it is very counterintuitive.

Yes, but all people have VPIP of about 95-99% with AK, and if villain's general VPIP is 10% then the fact that he played the hand means he now has AK quite often, about 3 times as much than if he was playing 30% VPIP. The same is true of your perceived image. I get that with 98 you're going to run into the same number of AK in a tight game as in a loose one, but that's not the point.

Are you serious? Of course 98 is great on QJT, that's not the point.

Do you really think we're getting a lot of action from all these hands? I mean QQ, JJ, TT I can understand, but the rest? They only beat a bluff if the flop goes 3bets+, perhaps even if it goes 2 bets+

Because people are more likely to be holding hands such as 43 on a 765 or 54 on a 367T board.

I meant you can never have the higher straight with 54... As in nobody can have a lower straight than you.

Will you acknowledge than pairing 9/8 is very different than pairing 5/4 in a loose game, but not so much in a tight one?

Uh, no, they have AK just as often as anyone else.

98 is far better on a QJT board than 54 on an 876 one, because a QJT board hits far more hands in a raised (or 3-bet) pot.

Yeah sorry I just added that.

The thing is, when you actually see a flop with 98 in a tight game, it's going to be against AK a high percentage of the time, so there's less profit to be made. You lose just as much against AK in either games, but you win more money against other hands in the loose game or rather, when villain is loose, or when he thinks you're loose (whether you really are or not)

Perhaps. But villain is going to expect you to have hit QJT (and big) more often than 876. At least if your image is tight. Also, what about pots that aren't 3-betted?

I would just say that all hands have their time and place and thinking along the lines you propose is treacherous.

This thread will do you no service and no favors. You are not thinking about poker in a productive way with this school of thought. Infact it is very counterintuitive.

I will reiterate this one last time. I hope it sinks in.

jlocdog, the point of this thread is to investigate whether 98s and 98o are worth as much as we normally think they are, in various situations. (our regular thinking is that they're just the connector that's above 87 and below T9. I'm proposing that there may be another important factor to be considered)

I don't think that's useless.