I have him 19/16 at 200nl generally doesnt get out of line often but obv v solid player. BTN is v loose and Id imagine villain also thinks I am agro and defo capable of bluffing here preflop. I think his 4bet calling range is looser than normal maybe 99+ AJs+ something like that. my 4bet size was terrible shoulda made it 67+. Is this a standard shove on turn or is checking better? I checked turn with the intention of making a gay 1/3 pot(or so) riv bet when he donk-shoved river i put him on KK+ or Qx. thoughts?


Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hans Vogl (CO): $242.30
WhoIsNowTheFish (BTN): $411.40
Ryanrizice (SB): $398.00
Hero (BB): $452.25
rvdkruk (UTG): $279.60

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with K K
2 folds, WhoIsNowTheFish raises to $7, Ryanrizice raises to $23, Hero raises to $57, 1 fold, Ryanrizice calls $34

Flop: ($121.00) Q 8 Q (2 players)
Ryanrizice checks, Hero bets $77, Ryanrizice calls $77

Turn: ($275.00) 8 (2 players)
Ryanrizice checks, Hero checks

River: ($275.00) 9 (2 players)
Ryanrizice bets $264 all in, Hero requests TIME, Hero folds

I'd call and swoop in on his AK. He shoves AA pf this deep and flops quads like never. Doesn't really 3bet/call 4 bet with anything that beats you I don't think.

I'd just shove the turn, it looks a ton bluffier on the double-paired board

i would check the flop and then bet turn/shove river, or else call down if he bets both streets himself

you think he calls flop with AK then turns it into a bluff on riv? you also think he prefers calling OOP with AK against agro 4bettor rather than 5betting?

Agree with this 100%.. I dont really see many more solid options

betting closer to pot on flop/making it more pre are both solid but i dont really see it changing the outcome of the hand much imho.

i think this deep, b v b, my range is a little bigger. and obvi you didn't love the Q, and i thought my line clearly rep'd a Q in my range.

i thought shoving psb on river meant really ONLY a Q or better. i knew you knew i don't really get out of line, so i actually thought i could get you to lay down AA

just shove the turn, he might think his Ace high is good.

dudes....he never has ace high here unless he sucks beyond measure.

Terrible river fold. This guy thinks TT or JJ are both good.

i don't think TT or JJ are good. I know that they're not, but i also know that he has to give me credit and fold KK-AA. given the table dynamics and our history, i thought i could get a fold there.

he also knows you don't have a queen...

well, thats a given, of course i know he doesnt have a Q

what are you calling the flop with then?

who the hell shoves JJ/TT here for value? the answer is no one. we're bluff catching and he has to have turned JJ/TT into a bluff.

I was thinking check the flop but given your small 4bet size I think betting is fine but i would bet bigger so you can shove the turn comfortably. you're not gonna get to the flop w/ air very often and even then you shouldn't be cbetting this flop much anyway so balancing your sizing is less of an issue. i like checking the flop if you woulda made it like 68-72 pre.

wait why can't OP have a Q? pf? why can't he just decide it was a good 4bet bluff spot and 4bet like QTs or something? postflop is like 100% what i would expect from a Q.

a 19/16 player 3 bets then flats a 4bet with QT? If he is 3 bet bluffing, why would he flat a 4bet?

Only hand he can have here imo is QQ... even AQ is a stretch here.

no OP cold 4bet. im pretty el-hitchhiker is villain and he said that he knew OP didn't have a Q and I was asking how.

i know.

are you saying that he villan 3bet bluffs with QT then flats a 4bet?

i don't really KNOW. it was situational, given the btn's steal %, my 3b %, OPs 4b % etc etc and the table dynamics.

my line pre, taking into account how deep we are, made it entirely plausible i have Q and in the past OP hasn't taken the same flop/turn lines with a Q. the timing of OP was taken into account as well, it just seemed obvious he didnt have a Q.

i also think semi-bluff calling here with JT 78s 99 is fine b/c of FE b/c OP is a thinking player.

rereading this, it seems a little all over the place, but thats my thought process as best as i can put into words

Good fold. I probably make it 65 here preflop. I dont think checking this flop is THAT bad but this is all in hindsight and after seeing it all play out.

You played it fine imo, we cant run hot every month.

its pretty damn unlikely he has a queen.

I don't think i'd ever bet check bet in this spot that line just screams value way too much. I'd either ship flop, bet turn bet river, or check flop and call both. youcan't win if u dont call.

id just call river fwiw....

Your assumptions here are way off

So you:

a) flatted with some **** to his 4-bet
b) thought he would put you on quads?

I repeated what I told him: terrible fold.

Your play was terribad, his was worse.

OK, so....you think he has quads?

Either you think villain has a wide range for flatting a 4-bet, in which case he's ******ed and this is a bad fold, or villain has a narrow range for flatting a 4-bet, in which case you are putting him on 88 or QQ, and this is a terrible fold.

Pick your poison.

I didn't say anything about what I thought he had.

And to be honest I think his range varies here based on game flow and history and is difficult to peg down. From what I've read villain is one of the better 200nl players.

My comment was directed to the fact that you think the villain will shove TT/JJ for value thinking he's good. That is how I intepretted your comment. But i'm pretty positive that if villain is shoving those hands it's as a bluff because he suspects he's not good. If I misinterpretted your comment, my apologies.