In villain shoes do you call that river with Jx?
If hero should bluff all of his bluff range which is ideally contains a lot of xdyd type and should ch behind sets ,2pair as you said ,then we can't expect that villain fold a lot of river after he is called that turn

The correct play on this board is so much more opponent then hand/range depandant. We don't know anything about villain on the turn and/or river so I like the raise in that case. If you have a stronger read then calling feels better.

This hand may seem like it has strong outs but its not that much better then 2 overcards or just a pair really. So if you look at our range it isn't that high up our 'raise' list either.

Tobe, I'm one of a few players that believe you're going to shoot up the stakes next year and be doing very well for yourself. That being said there is a way to handle yourself if you want people to listen/respect what you say. I can't tell whether it's a) you just like being douchey to people or b) aren't self aware of how you come across to others on this forum. If it's b) then maybe consider toning down the aggression of your posts to others since it's totally unwarranted/just makes people dismiss what you say. If it's a) then whatever. I've never had any problems with you at the table (bar you like to moan about running bad hu but who doesn't) that being said I really dislike reading your posts on 2+2 because your attitude to others appears to really suck, which is a shame and almost certainly does you no favours when you post so much.

1. "we are only repping 77/55 on the river"
we have a ****load of flushes in our range, are you actually saying you never raise a flushdraw on the flop?
2. rather raising a6 than 64 makes no sense whatsoever
A6 has a lot of showdownvalue vs someone who opens 80% and therefore plays really well IP, raising doesnt fold out much better and you have very few outs when called
64high has no showdown value whatsoever, you fold out a lot of better hands by raising and have nice disguised outs when called.
we are also NOT getting 3bet on the flop very often(a 80% opening range is rarely hitting this flop)

which flushes would you raise here? They all play well as a call, some got SDV, others got side equity of straight/overs, i dont see any reason to raise here. Besides we have hands that still have some equity but cant really call so id much rather raise them. Unless we just fold these hands we become super unbalanced with a huge bluffing/semi-bluffing range and somewhat smallish value range.
A6 wasnt the best example, i admit, altho i still think it's an ok raise as a merging range sort of. Im not sure im getting this concept just yet so i may very well be wrong here. Just was my thought.
And about your argument of having no sdv and folding out worse hands well we can achieve the same thing by simply floating with position.

Meeeh, thinking this through again and again i dont think i hate the flop raise with some fd/maybe even this hand, I simply prefer the other way to play those hands and i believe raising flop is simply sub-optimal.


the thing that im not getting is that i made 5 posts throughout this thread and the one that got noticed the most is the last one - where yeah, how else am i supposed to react when i get 3x "wat" responses?
i make one an ok-eish constructed post, one where im just stating my opinion briefly and couple more shortly explaining my thoughts yet im berated for one post?
sure im not the nicest person, but i dont see my posts as offensive at all, that may be my problem, im not going to argue about it.

???
Ax, Jx, 98, T9
and more


you float every single draw and are ridiculously imbalanced in the progress, I would c/c turn blanks with K high vs u as villain

Like I said earlier, raising flop is fine, flatting too, it's just a matter of style really. Personally I don't like raising because:

1) It's higher variance

2) You'll have to reconsider what to do with other parts of your range, like merging with QJ and stuff for balancing reason. If you just raise all your draws and flat your pairs you'll be exploited for sure by the decent regs.
And yes, I care for balance in my games.


Against some players with a huge turn cbet%, flatting a naked OESD isn't always that attractive though because you'll miss mostly and face a biggish turnbet with six high.

what are you doing with 89/T9/AT/KT/QT/KQ (suited or ofsuited doesnt matter as long as it's not spades)?

Im more of a "floater" as well actually

floating most Ace/king highs, some straightdraws, some flushdraws, + all the pairs
raising some straight draws, some flushdraws, some unplayable crap, two pair+ and a few strong Jx

Why are a lot of you looking to raise unplayable crap like K8o here? This flop texture gives so much of our range *something* that it seems better to stick the unplayable crap into our folding range, unless you are not planning to ever fold to his cbet on this board?

because villain is opening 80% and therefore rarely has a hand on the flop, we exploit his leak and pound on his weak range

That seems like a real bad level 1 reason for raising complete air on this board. If he really is raising 80% and then cbetting 100% we may be able to get away with raising complete air here (even then, it depends!) but this just won't be the case with a competent player. It's a texture where even though he is oop, he can continue with a very wide range by floating or re-raising. You plan to barrel with K8o?

1) a player opening 80% in the sb vs a decent/good reg is not competent, fact
2) our range is balanced so no, villain cannot just go nuts with his air all the time, he would get crushed

ah and k8 is probably good enough to float and try to show down

Balance is exactly why I don't think raising random junk is good here. There are already so many hands we can raise both for value and for bluffs that when we start raising random junk we become extremely unbalanced. Maybe you can breakdown your balanced raising range here that includes K8o?

9 combos of 75
9 combos of j7
9 combos of j5
6 combos of AJ/KJ

about 16 flushdraw combos(most stack off on the flop, lets say 12)
about 16 straightdraw combos
about 12 combos of utter unplayable trash

33 value combos + 12flushdraw = 45 combos stack off on the flop
32 fold to a 3bet
= we fold to a 3bet about 42% of the time

with a normal sizing villains 3bet bluff has to fold us out about 60% of the time = not profitable

turn and river are harder to analyse(due to a lot of different runouts) but if we adjust our barrel frequencies properly it is impossible for villain to call us down lightly profitable.

like you see 12 combos of "trash" is on the very low side and we could get away with 30ish(we would have to shutdown on blank turns/river quite frequently tho)

Ok I see so you're not actually raising that much unplayable trash. I misunderstood the earlier posts from you and tobe4funas to mean that you guys were always raising stuff like Q6o or A8o here, which obviously adds up to way more than 12 combos.

a8o is not even close to "trash"
I happily call 2-3 streets with it depending on the runout

tobe i dont think anyone was berating you, just more direct sarcasm

prefer to float the flop here

i'd rather raise stronger/weaker hands over this weak OESD, also depends when he gives up on hands

don't like barrelling off when the flush hits that is going to be a decent part of his calling range. good made hands on the flop are going to 3b a lot,

Great discussion guys.

I really like my raise otf, so, that's not gonna really change too much. It works well with my game plan. Its true that a really good player is gonna 3b me with air sometimes, draws sometimes, and also top pair sometimes, and he's gonna c/c with good hands and im gonna be in a world of hurt (in fact that happened the very same session vs diff guy). But i didnt think this villain was that good, so i wasnt worried about a flop 3b. And even if he did this time, so what, I've got a pretty ****ty hand despite what most of you guys think.

My main concern was the the river shove.

Cuz @ 100nl I'm giving up damn near 100%

And @ 200nl I'm giving up a bunch too

But at 400nl, wasn't sure. I thought a shove was mandatory but need confirmation.

I need more feed back on my other thread 400nl standard spots.

Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate your feedback.

Ps, also I don't have a problem with tobe, he might come off as a little abrasive/ douchey, but whatever. No biggie. But I think it would be better for everyone if tobe would explain his thoughts better, then maybe people would stop misinterpreting him.

.

So, river bet mandatory?
That's correct of what been said in this thread?

And one more question. How we seen villains turn calling range?

River bet seems decent here. You should fold out his Jx hands that still wanted to call the turn and also should folded out his combo type drawing hands, who knows maybe he even lays down a small flush here too (unlikely)