200NL: KQo vs reg - Page 2 - Small Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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200NL: KQo vs reg

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10-15-2013 , 12:34 PM

#26

shark_fishin

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,085

What hands would you suggest as an alternative for OOP floating? I need ~8c, although if you think i should call any 9x hands pre, that could change.

Agree now that river is a fold.

10-15-2013 , 03:15 PM

#27

BonitaMadras

adept

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 760

why the hate against the flop float ?

It is nice to let villain barrel our outs for 2 more streets of value with his bluffs and it is also nice to have some bluffs on the river, once turn goes check-check.

The fact, that one of the worst river-cards in the deck for heros range peeled off on the river, doesn't make it a bad play.

10-15-2013 , 03:32 PM

#28

cashy

we have welbeck

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 29,771

if villain is vbetting flop w/ AK/AQ flop float is bad otherwise aight

10-15-2013 , 04:55 PM

#29

shark_fishin

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,085

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashy

if villain is vbetting flop w/ AK/AQ flop float is bad otherwise aight

Because these hands are too thin for value, so we lose when trying to float someone who value bets too thin?(not enough air in his range to fold out OTR?).
But is not floating OOP countering a player who is imbalanced this way? Seems like he is still going to be +EV if he bets or checks those hands regardless of what we do, i mean we can't exploit him?

*Edit - what if CO did have enough air in his range as well to bet AQ/AK OTF for what he thinks is value? Is OOP float still bad? I'm a bit confused.. :-\

10-15-2013 , 05:44 PM

#30

RaiseOrRaise

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 129

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashy

if villain is vbetting flop w/ AK/AQ flop float is bad otherwise aight

You've forgot QQ KK AA, whom are likely as well...

What hands would I suggest to oop float with... In this situation none...
I'd rather c/r this flop, thats a much better line I think, and if he doesnt buy it, well depends on lots of things, but of course mostly on the turn card...

But why to be tricky with so little money in the pot...? Simlpy just fold on flop...

10-15-2013 , 05:46 PM

#31

cashy

we have welbeck

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 29,771

Quote:

Originally Posted by shark_fishin

Because these hands are too thin for value, so we lose when trying to float someone who value bets too thin?

losing 3 streets to AQ/AK when we hit makes a big difference that's all

10-15-2013 , 05:50 PM

#32

dodgybob

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,899

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashy

pretty simple
if villain isn't calling with worse most of the EV like you said comes "the money you make by 3b pre and making 5bb when they both fold"

which means that you are better off 3betting more polarized and shouldn't "waste" a hand as good as KQ

Ah, I misunderstood your point.

Flatting or 3b are both fine I guess. I prefer 3b because you're not closing the action, and for the other reasons already mentioned. If hero was BB I would definitely flat.

10-15-2013 , 06:00 PM

#33

shark_fishin

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,085

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiseOrRaise

You've forgot QQ KK AA, whom are likely as well...

Then what are you doing with TT(assuming you flat it), any 9x, 88 77? You still have a c/c flop range, which still has hands that can vbet on river.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashy

losing 3 streets to AQ/AK when we hit makes a big difference that's all

Ok but on AKQ turns villain can still bet air so it's not like it will be -EV to call down. If we don't have overcards like KQ, we end up c/cing weaker hands on those cards that don't even block the AK/AQ and we give up the ability to value bet river since we have no air to bluff with.

10-15-2013 , 06:18 PM

#34

RaiseOrRaise

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 129

Quote:

Originally Posted by shark_fishin

Then what are you doing with TT(assuming you flat it), any 9x, 88 77? You still have a c/c flop range, which still has hands that can vbet on river.

Sometimes donkb, ov course with very strong hands as well...
But those hands I'd c/r mostly... I've found out that
its better to oop this way, and I'm balancing here too, so sometimes AA n stuff as well as airs...

10-15-2013 , 09:35 PM

#35

1ionu

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 264

I like 3 betting pre but calling can't be a mistake. The flop float is generally bad imo you should float with stuff that has good backdoor equity not just a naked KQo. Once you bink TP on turn I don't see any way you can fold river since you are now pretty high up in your range. If you fold KQ in this spot then you are folding everything that isn't a set... maybe you can get there with T9s or KdJd.

10-15-2013 , 10:22 PM

#36

PantherXYZ

adept

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 1,029

whats better to float than KQo?

10-15-2013 , 10:46 PM

#37

Mateo94

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,262

You can 3 Bet bluff here to take down the put but you are only getting called by hands that dominate you or set miners which that flop favors or draws who you will maker money from or get stacked. Unless you flop two pair or open ender you have to be worried about what flatted you as you play OOP. My best advice is if you do 3 bet its for value from a fold didn't look at fold to 3 bet percentage if its high enough 3 bet if called play cautiously post flop.

10-16-2013 , 02:42 AM

#38

nikinblinds

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,465

depends on his fold to 3bet surely? domination is overrated. 3bet makes more money than flatting to keep fish (assuming not a monster).

flop is a fold dont really get it.

10-16-2013 , 06:42 AM

#39

F_Ivanovic

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,659

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikinblinds

depends on his fold to 3bet surely? domination is overrated. 3bet makes more money than flatting to keep fish (assuming not a monster).

flop is a fold dont really get it.

Only reason domination is overrated is because people don't try and get enough value when they hit their TP OOP. They think "oh, we have to just c/c this down because if we do anything else our c/c range will be too weak." And so they often just miss out on a whole lot of value when villain does have a weaker Q or K.

3bet is +ev but if we're 3-betting this hand then we're 3-betting too much unless this is purely a value 3-bet.

10-16-2013 , 09:48 PM

#40

amoeba

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 20,431

are you leading all non AKQ turns? or are you hoping turn goes check check and bluffing non AKQ rivers?

whats the plan?

Also, being OOP, I don't see how calling is in anyway better than checkraising.

10-17-2013 , 02:09 AM

#41

EVPoker

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 54

In this hand you can pretty much choose freely what to do, even fold isn't that horrible line.

If you call, and fish will fold, you will need 41% of the pot back postflop (we consider 5% rake). QKo has 50% against 25% range, which might be reasonable assumption there. If you loose 20% from that 50%, you will get 40% and just break even with your call.

So in this spot raise might give you higher EV and when you are being called you usually know how to play your hand, because most hands that dominate you will 4-bet then.

My order is 3-bet > call > fold, but fold and call are actually pretty pretty close

10-17-2013 , 04:13 AM

#42

shark_fishin

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,085

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoeba

Hoping turn goes check check and bluffing rivers.
OOP floats are better with good highcard hands, check-raise bluffs are better with semi-bluffs(KcJc/QcJc). I need some air in both ranges, besides i only have 99 in my c-r range, so it's not like i should check-raise a ton of air.

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