200NL JJ facing triple barrel - Small Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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200NL JJ facing triple barrel

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11-10-2011 , 06:21 PM

daveh07

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,950

Villain is a tag playing 26/20/2.4

His flop c-bet is 70% and turn frequency is 45% and river is 56%. My stats are tag myself.

Bodog - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $187.00
BB: $425.00
UTG: $200.00
Hero (CO): $197.00
BTN: $252.00

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero has J

UTG raises to $6.00, Hero calls $6.00, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($15.00, 2 players) 8

UTG bets $11.00, Hero calls $11.00

Turn: ($37.00, 2 players) Q

UTG bets $26.00, Hero calls $26.00

River: ($89.00, 2 players) 2

UTG bets $38.00, hero folds

11-10-2011 , 07:22 PM

EVplusEV

journeyman

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 258

Villain dependant.

I'd call and make a note

11-10-2011 , 08:45 PM

Sirrybob

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,261

If you can show up here with better hands other than trips/boat then this is standard yeah.
Due to his betsizing I kinda like jamming the river though :-)

11-10-2011 , 11:03 PM

daveh07

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,950

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirrybob

If you can show up here with better hands other than trips/boat then this is standard yeah.
Due to his betsizing I kinda like jamming the river though :-)

I thought about it.. his bet sizing seems like something that can't take a jam. But then i thought what if he was thinking his small bet size provoked a jam and he might be able to call light. (level?)

11-10-2011 , 11:17 PM

AnimalWarrior

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 481

Why not 3b PF and RR flop?

11-10-2011 , 11:30 PM

daveh07

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,950

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnimalWarrior

Why not 3b PF and RR flop?

Villains fold to 3-bet stat was insanely high something like 90%. Figured he wouldn't call worse if I 3-bet and I would be turning my hand into a bluff.

11-10-2011 , 11:49 PM

AnimalWarrior

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 481

With JJ I would def want to 3b to weed out KQ, QJ, etc. Make him pay if he's trying to land a card above a J.

Also, I don't think I would have called the turn if I'm not going to call a blank river.

11-11-2011 , 12:38 AM

Big Jon 21

adept

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 822

I would probably 3bet preflop. 5 handed we are going to be 3betting pretty often so this hand seems like a must. As played I am not sure if villain v-bets 99/TT here even though I think he should. I think as played you made the right play but I would have raised preflop and that would have made for a totally different hand.

11-11-2011 , 06:00 AM

lejean80

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,865

Preflop depends a lot on our image and history. If villain never calls 3bets oop, and rarely 4bet bluffs in this spot, then 3betting would waste our hand. If we 3bet bluffed a lot in the past, 3betting becomes better.

Isn't this a flop, people love to 3barrell because you almost never hit!? JJ is the top of your range here. He might even try to value-bet TT on the river.

11-11-2011 , 08:00 AM

#10

whatwonder

Poker Agent

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 874

What % is villain opening from MP? 3-betting pre-flop is terrible advice since villain folds so often to 3-bets. I'd call this river and make a note (as he could have something like T9s, Axcc, Kxcc, or even be thinly value/block betting with 99-TT, etc.); if villain is super tight from MP it becomes more of a raise or fold spot.

You are usually going to be beat when you call, but obv you only have to win like 20% or something to be good.

11-11-2011 , 09:10 AM

#11

Klakteuh

banned

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,975

Flatting here is fine. 3bet is only OK with history/dynamic or if opponent calls really light. It's not like villain should flick it in with TT here without history.

As played, I think you can call because his betsizing still accomplishes a cheap bluff to get you off A3, AcXc, 44-77 so just because it's small doesnt mean he's necessarily value betting.

Shoving is OK, though if he's good he can definitely bet/call Qx there since you're pretty much just repping 8x and 33, and you shouldn't have too many 8x combos, esp if he has an Ace or 7x/9x.

11-11-2011 , 10:52 AM

#12

Big Jon 21

adept

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 822

I actually posted my response before I read any posts. 90% fold to 3bet is HUGE. Flats good then, I still like the fold on river though. He would have to be betting 99-TT on the river for our call to be +EV imo. With a range of 99-AA, AcKc, AQo, AQs, AcJc its a call and if you take out 99-TT its a fold. Whether he bets it or not I think its marginal at best so call is barely better than fold if at all. I would fold with information we have though.

11-11-2011 , 11:07 AM

#13

Cheerful Demon

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,920

close call imo

11-11-2011 , 01:20 PM

#14

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,843

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveh07

Villains fold to 3-bet stat was insanely high something like 90%. Figured he wouldn't call worse if I 3-bet and I would be turning my hand into a bluff.

so?

11-11-2011 , 02:31 PM

#15

chytry

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 4,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveh07

Villains fold to 3-bet stat was insanely high something like 90%. Figured he wouldn't call worse if I 3-bet and I would be turning my hand into a bluff.

Trapping with jacks, eh.

11-11-2011 , 02:35 PM

#16

wishiewish

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11,219

Bluffcatching starting from pre.

11-11-2011 , 06:51 PM

#17

terp

Carnal \ 'Knowledge

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 14,780

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnimalWarrior

With JJ I would def want to 3b to weed out KQ, QJ, etc. Make him pay if he's trying to land a card above a J.

Also, I don't think I would have called the turn if I'm not going to call a blank river.

you aren't a tournament player by chance are you

11-11-2011 , 07:24 PM

#18

drsmooth

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,362

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

so?

Eh? His post seemed perfectly reasonable. If he doesn't feel he can 3b it for value its obviously a great flat, and if he can't flat this either then there isn't a single hand he is flatting in the co versus an mp open except like AQs or something...

11-11-2011 , 07:53 PM

#19

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,843

Quote:

Originally Posted by drsmooth

if he can't flat this either then there isn't a single hand he is flatting in the co versus an mp open except like AQs or something...

i don't understand why this is a concern.

11-11-2011 , 09:02 PM

#20

drsmooth

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,362

I don't get where you're coming from either. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other

JJ is obviously a +ev flat here. So why 3bet it if it isn't clearly for value when there a dozens of better hands to use as a 3b bluff?

11-11-2011 , 09:11 PM

#21

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,843

yes but if villains fold to 3bet is ridiculously high u make more money 3betting than flatting ainec. your cards dont matter.

11-11-2011 , 10:05 PM

#22

AnimalWarrior

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 481

Quote:

Originally Posted by drsmooth

I stand corrected, after talking to my coach he agreed that flatting is +EV and explained to me. That's why I'm here, I am no poker pro and I don't claim to know everything, but I'll question things in order to challenge my way of thought.

11-11-2011 , 10:05 PM

#23

daveh07

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,950

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

yes but if villains fold to 3bet is ridiculously high u make more money 3betting than flatting ainec. your cards dont matter.

the 3-bet opportunity was there for the +EV move but why not waste 3-bet chance on a worse hand that i wouldn't normally call such as A5s. 3-betting tarnishes my image every time I do it and 3-betting JJ here because it is the most +EV move at the time doesn't mean it is the line I should take. You have to factor in future image and the fact after I do this I can't do it with a crap hand next time because he is more likely to play back at me.

11-11-2011 , 10:17 PM

#24

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,843

whilst that is true, if he has a super high fold to 3bet by nature, then he probably isnt the type who will be adjusting very well

11-11-2011 , 11:44 PM

#25

daveh07

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,950

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

whilst that is true, if he has a super high fold to 3bet by nature, then he probably isnt the type who will be adjusting very well

do you use the word whilst in real life... i doubt it so why use it online? To sound philosophical? haha but yah I understand your reasoning behind it but from what I can gather is most regs at these stakes will make adjustments pretty quick to 3-bets if you are doing it enough.

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