villain was unknown
thoughts?

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $221.00
Hero (BB): $238.30
UTG: $200.00
CO: $253.60
BTN: $189.70

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with K A
2 folds, BTN raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $21, BTN calls $15

Flop: ($43.00) J 9 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($43.00) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $21.50, Hero folds

Bet flop, lots of dead money to pick up.

you could bet the flop

I wouldnt bet the flop unless youre going to 2nd barrell or CRAI turn.

Whats youre betting range? Set and overpear?
Count on it and you will realise that ATC is a decent bet against unknown on this flop. His range is pretty wide and you will pick up the pot more than enough.

Also, you need to bet air some of the time to atleast make some sort of balance in your range adn you cant just end up w TQ as bluffs.

We also have backdoor flush and straight

What's villain going to fold to 1 barrel on this flop? AQ?

I think you played it ok, you don't need to try and win every single pot you 3b in. Betting the flop would be ok either, quite a few good turn cards that you can double barrell on as well.

eeeehhhh 56s 67s 78s AQ yes, 22 44 55 66 77 88, QK
Alot of people call with ridic hands like Axs to 3b with a smallish size lika this.

And if he calls w missed PP he will miss value against our range

If he is unknown you bet the flop. True too many people like to call and raise cbets at nl200 but that is no reason to give up on the pot. We have no read on him.

Just say this to yourself. I am going to cbet dry flops until I am given a reason not cbet.

If you don't cbet, you are not testing out the waters and you are not learning anything. By him calling or floating a small c-bet you are gathering good information for future hands. For example, if he is folding a lot in 3-bet pots, what does this tell us? Basically, we can 3 bet him all day and make a huge profit by cbetting lots of flops. If he calls we can just cbet.

Given this flop isn't the dryest flop, it is dry enough for a cbet, especially against an unknown. Until he is raising cbets or floating, you need to cbet. You also can pick up a lot of outs on the turn to fire a second barrel, and get supreme value when you turn top pair top kicker.

-Big Coconutz

Im not saying i would only bet OP and sets here, im saying i wouldnt take 1 shot on the flop then c/f....too exploitable in this spot.

Ok, sorry I made that assumption

bet the flop you can credibly rep and over pair.

Bet the flop. This is one of those times where the board texture > your hand.

This. Youre burning tons of money if you bet flop then c/f

IF he's a very smart, thinking player...

Perfectly reasonable line.

The thing is that most of those hands aren't a part of his range nearly as often as the ones he won't fold. In addition a ton of people aren't folding KQ here. I also wasn't saying we necessarily have to give up btw, just that I think it's a better option than only firing 1 barrel.

More like if he's a standard TAG, which is fairly likely vs. an unknown. Although betting once on this board isn't exactly a great idea vs. a lot of fish either.

people tend to play pretty straight forward in 3b pots so I don't thing cbetting and then c/f turn is at all that bad.

+1

i think cbetting here is a must, c/f is way too weak.

the board doesn't hit him much, and you can credibly rep an overpair with plenty of fold equity... Additionally you can barrel any Q/K/A if he calls

Does everyone agree that we should c/bet in most flops after 3 betting PF? J high flop is a pretty good one right?

I don't get why you say the board doesn't hit him much when the only broadway combos it completely misses are AQ and AT. The board also looks like it hardly ever hit us hard either so he may very well even float with those. Calling ranges don't tend to be as polarized as betting/raising ranges, so it's hard for me to see a PF range that folds often enough to one barrel on this flop that isn't insanely loose. If he calls with smallish SCs like someone suggested, he probably calls with bigger ones as well and they all hit this flop to some degree.

As for your range of barreling cards, I think it's way too narrow. Personally I'd tend to leave A/K turns out since they give us a hand rather than an opportunity to bluff, and I don't think a Q is going to be profitable enough, if at all, to count on as the one card we can keep firing on without improving. There are just so many hands in a calling range on this flop that will like a Q or at least not mind it too much. I'd much prefer firing hearts and a lot of blanks to fold out floats and weakish one pair hands that peeled once to see if we'd bet again.

auto cbet every single time before you can level yourself into checking

I agree, but you need to have a plan beyond cbetting 60% of pot on the flop.

In general im sure you agree people Cbet way too much, one of the spots that is so exploitable in this manner is when we open the button and are 3b from the blinds, we call, and the preflop 3bettor fires on a fairly innocuous board, in this spot i will float a hell of a lot (provided i know the player knows where the fold button is). However my fold to 2nd barrel % would be very high.

If the original raiser had been UTG or MP its a different story, but when we 3bet a button raiser from the blinds we dont get a whole lot of respect.

Im most definately not saying dont bet, im saying your cbet range should be almost the same as your turn betting (dbl barrel) range.

J94 3 tone flop is kind of hard to hit... at best he has a gut shot with KQ here.. but unless you have a jack or an overpair, its kind of hard to continue. I don't think he ever gets to the flop with suited connectors in a 3bet pot unless he is really that bad. Not only that but there are no flush draws that his big suited cards could continue with.

as for barreling, you are betting every A/K/Q and even T that peels here imo. he could be floating the flop with 88/99/TT.