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09-30-2010 , 06:55 AM

mamba202

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 20

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $129.25
BB: $100.00
Hero (UTG): $151.15
MP: $102.00
CO: $163.55
BTN: $175.90

Should i raise 3bet on the flop?

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG with 9

Hero raises to $3, 2 folds, BTN calls $3, 2 folds

Flop: ($7.50) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $5, BTN raises to $14, Hero raises to $37, BTN raises to $172.90 all in, Hero calls $111.15 all in

Turn: ($303.80) 7

(2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($303.80) 7

(2 players - 2 are all in)

09-30-2010 , 07:17 AM

thatssosick

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,443

call the flop raise. i dont think we're getting it in very good if we 3bet.

09-30-2010 , 07:21 AM

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,843

nah i think you get it in good vs his range purely because we have a pair with our flush draw.

its hard to evaluate the ev of calling, though obviously its +ev. i just feel like when you flat and turn is a brick he will check back all his draws which means you should c/f blank turns, which sucks because you still have good equity.

09-30-2010 , 10:13 AM

thatssosick

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,443

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

we get it in v sets and draws like Ax spades sometimes KQ spades. v higher flush draws we're flipping and obviously v sets we're crushed.

i think calling to keep his bluffs in is fine because if hes bluffing with overcards or whatever, 1. we have sd value so its fine to check down, 2. he has so few outs with overcards/gutshots because of our flush draw.

just dont think ppl get higher flush draws in always but will definitely get sets in.

09-30-2010 , 10:43 AM

Kimpan

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,064

I agree on calling flop.

09-30-2010 , 11:02 AM

LeperLeper

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 492

With these type of hands ideally you want to be the person shoving. If the situation does not allow this then I prefer calling.

09-30-2010 , 11:26 AM

lurkling

adept

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 879

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

i just feel like when you flat and turn is a brick he will check back all his draws which means you should c/f blank turns, which sucks because you still have good equity.

i can almost never find a reason to disagree with your lines.. but in this case why are we folding if turn bricks? i mean yes some cards could give merit to folding, but c/f top pair/flush draw?

i get that we hold top pair with our flush draw so when hes raising sets, calling to make 2p/trips is out.. and so thats why youre opting to get it in on flop.. or did i just answer my own question here lol

09-30-2010 , 11:38 AM

Jever

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,737

I would call the flop raise and not c/f against turn bets.
He can bluff or even valuebet some overcards on the turn if he raised flop with naked broadways or with overpairs. Against those we have decent equity.
If turn or river is a spade, he could bluff it if he's reasonably aggressive and we don't have many FDs we would call one or two streets with.
For instance, if we c/c turn, river is a spade, we rarely have a flush in this spot, so that he might bluff or even value bet sets, because our hand looks like a bluffcatcher.

Last edited by Jever; 09-30-2010 at 11:58 AM.

09-30-2010 , 11:41 AM

Make_it_rain187

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 258

I flat the flop raise I agree most of the hands he gets it in with on this flop has us in bad shape. No horrible but def not good. If he's more on thr spewy/bluffy side then you could still flat and c/r shove the turn. As played is ok
too but I just hate shipping it there and he shows a set and we have 35% equity makes me kinda wanna puke

09-30-2010 , 11:50 AM

#10

Jever

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by Make_it_rain187

too but I just hate shipping it there and he shows a set and we have 35% equity makes me kinda wanna puke

We don't have 35% equity vs. sets, and 35% equity isn't really in bad shape and absolutely no reason to puke imo.

09-30-2010 , 03:13 PM

#11

mamba202

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 20

so u guys say best line is:

call
ch/call
ch/fold

????

09-30-2010 , 03:20 PM

#12

mamba202

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 20

I ran some samples in stove, gave his range al ax spades some braodway spades 66 99 44 64 and couple of bluffs, and our equity against that range is 63%, doing something wrong?

09-30-2010 , 03:33 PM

#13

Jever

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamba202

I ran some samples in stove, gave his range al ax spades some braodway spades 66 99 44 64 and couple of bluffs, and our equity against that range is 63%, doing something wrong?

Those shouldn't be included in his stackoff range on the flop obv.

09-30-2010 , 05:13 PM

#14

mamba202

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 20

Which should we consider in his stackoff range, plus which is our eq against his hole raising range on the flop, which should include those hands.

09-30-2010 , 05:31 PM

#15

Jever

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamba202

Which should we consider in his stackoff range, plus which is our eq against his hole raising range on the flop, which should include those hands.

Yeah, I don't know what you wanna find out if you stove the equity against his whole flop raising range. I think it doesn't lead to any useful conclusions.
I thought you'd want to calc the EV of 3bet/call AI.
Anyway, you should know better than me, of course.

09-30-2010 , 05:51 PM

#16

mamba202

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 20

I wanted to know if 3betting is an ev+ accion on the flop, considering his AI and his folds.

09-30-2010 , 06:02 PM

#17

mamba202

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 20

By raising and him folding I know we are only making him fold hands that we have dominated, but are we calling, on turn and river, if we flat his raise on the flop? Are we getting bluffed to many times with his f draws?

09-30-2010 , 06:04 PM

#18

Jever

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamba202

I wanted to know if 3betting is an ev+ accion on the flop, considering his AI and his folds.

Well, then you need to estimate your fold equity by 3betting, then stove the equity against his stackoff range, then calculate the EV considering the effective stacks and the current pot size.

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