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10k Post: Be Like Ivey! 10k Post: Be Like Ivey!

02-19-2010 , 07:00 PM
It's 10k post time! For mine, i decided to examine some of the things that Phil Ivey has done that has led him to being widely considered the best player in the world, and how you can incorporate them into your game. if you're a recreational player or a professional who isn't really interested in moving up because you grind enough at your current level, this may not be for you, as this is written with the professional who wants to move up aggressively and beat the toughest competition in mind (not to say there's anything wrong with the first two, this is just written from a specific angle). Where i can, i've tried to add a direct quote from Ivey, some of the other are things that i've observed others say about him (friends and opponents alike) as a player. Some of the points maybe be obvious or counterintuitive to you, others not so much, but i think they bear repeating either way. Enjoy!

Play with great players
Quote:
There's a big difference between playing $400-$800 and playing $4,000-$8,000. There's a different caliber of players. I learned the most by playing with Barry (Greenstein) and other winning players, guys like Chip (Reese) and Doyle (Brunson)
I've chosen this one to start because i feel it is the most important in any players development and the one i'll talk on the most. The state of bumhuntings in todays high, mid (and now increasingly, the small) stakes games has also gotten pretty bad, so this kills 2 birds with one stone. In order to become the best at your stakes, you absolutely have to play with the best players at your stakes. I'm not going to turn this into an anti bumhunting PSA, but if you only ever play with droolers, you are severely stunting your growth as a player. A lot of players don't want to get behind this because they (correctly) believe their winrate will drop, but this is only a short term consequence.

Consider two different views.

If you only play with bad players, you will move towards your goal of being rolled for the next stakes quicker. However, as you move up, the fish become more scarce, and the fishy regulars at the higher stakes are still likely good enough to be solid winners at the lower stakes, meaning you probably don't have an edge against them either. Players at lower stakes also continue to improve, which is why the successful bumhunters of years past's winrates have now started to drop, as they haven't put time into learning to beat them.

Now, if you do play with good players at your stakes though, you will eventually learn to beat the good and mediocre regulars as well, giving you more tools to earn with, and when you move up, though you will now be a dog to the good regulars again, you will likely be able to beat the weaker regs, meaning your chances of a successful shot go way up! Playing with good players also gives you a firsthand look at how big winners play, and you can take things from their games which were missing in your own. This can be achieved to a degree with datamining, but you'll get to see your opponents hole cards a lot more in hands your dealt into, giving you better insight into their tendencies. I'm obviously not advocating that you have to jump straight into the toughest games when you move up, but you should eventually!


Take shots constantly

Quote:
I would sit and grind out in the $75-$150 game all week to build up my bankroll to play in the $400-$800 game. I'd play, and he'd break me! I'd go back down and play $75-$150, build up again, and he'd break me again. This kept on happening. I don't think I beat him one hand in six months.
This follows on from the last point, but i'm a big advocate of taking shots and constantly getting back on that horse, no matter how many times you've taken a beating. Taking shots gives you the opportunity to play with better players and improve quicker. A lot of people preach very conservative bankroll management, and i feel like it causes their games to stagnate and become risk averse. If you're a proven winner at your given stakes over a huge sample, then you should be using excess bankroll to take shots, because as long as you stay rolled for your normal stakes, you can always grind that money up again. Again you get to play with players who are generally a lot better, the more shots you take the more immune you become to the swings at your new stake, and playing at a higher stake will give you bigger confidence to beat your regular stakes. If you keep hammering away, you WILL break through eventually!

Play a LOT!

Quote:
I put in between 50 and 90 hours a week. I put in a lot of time playing poker.
If you want to be the best, you have to play a ton. A lot of people confuse this with putting in volume, but this is not what i'm getting at. You can't just phone it in playing 100k+ hands a month and expect to get better. This just doesn't work for most people, you have to think about what you're doing. I think its better to put in 12 hours 4 tabling than 6 hours 8 tabling. Play fewer tables, and really thinking about lines and ranges. Yes, this has been said 1000 times before, but so few players actually take time to actually do it. They just fire up 12 tables, and play a very mediocre 100k hands month after month, never really examining their games. Before you can put in heavy volume, you have to have a solid foundation from which you can build on. Put in a lot of hours, not a lot of hands. There is absolutely no substitute for quality playing experience.

Discuss strategy with great players
Quote:
Yeah, when I first started playing, I talked a lot to John Juanda and Daniel Negreanu. I met them through playing tournaments, and they helped me out; we discussed hands. As I started coming up through the ranks and playing higher and higher, I realized that you learn at every level.
Along with this, he has also said discussed strategy with Barry, Doyle and Chip Reese. Discussing hands with the best players at your level is a fantastic way to improve. You get great input on your hand histories, and often can get into deeper discussion that you would from just making a thread on 2+2, because the same points don't get dragged out over and over. Sometimes a hand is too trivial to post or you just want a fresh set of eyes. Having somebody to just talk things over with also has many additional benefits outside of just strategy, like a source of reassurance when running bad or just somebody to shoot the **** with. Poker is isolating by nature, but it doesn't have to be. Of course, if you want to talk to good players, you have to bring something to the table too, because a situation where you're constantly pestering somebody for advice without giving anything valuable back probably won't last long. So either try bring good well thought out discussion to the table, or find people who are at the same level as you and try improve each other together. I would also include hiring a coach in this, as it gives you the chance to talk strat with somebody who is usually very good, and many offer a free HH review service even after your sessions are done.

Work on adjusting and try new things

Quote:
The difference between the biggest game and the $400-$800 game is that in the big game, they can adjust to anything you do. If you play faster, they'll adjust. If you play tighter, they'll adjust. The best players can tell when another player is adjusting or thinking about adjusting, and then it's back and forth. So, if you do have a strategy, you'd better be willing to change it.
There comes a certain stake at which any particular person's ABC game stops being effective. When your day is done, you have to really really analyze your play for the day. DaGrunt made a great thread a while ago called Rising Above Mediocrity, which goes into great detail about what i'm stating very briefly here. Think about spots which give you great difficulty, then try put regulars in them. Look at which board textures you don't like for certain parts of your range, then use this against regs with similar stats. Take lines which are unconventional and see if they can be effective. Now dig into the stats and HH's of people you play against often and figure out ways to exploit them. There are massive leaks to exploit in regulars at all stakes in the low and mid games, find them and use them!

Be a quitter
Barry Greenstein has said that one of Ivey's greatest attributes, one which Chip Reese also shared, is his ability to quit games. I remember hearing LWRunner103 saying in a interview that Ivey rarely loses more than 3 buyins HU without instantly quitting. Quitting is also something that Tommy Angelo stresses greatly. People generally greatly overestimate how much worse they play when losing. If you don't feel like you're playing your A game, just call it a day. Poker will still be there tomorrow. It's so simple a concept, yet so few people work on it. It can make a huge huge difference to your winrate, i started doing this about 3 months ago and can't stress how beneficial it is. It applies to all forms of poker, but i think its of greatest importance in HU, where momentum plays such a huge part. Quit, and come back stronger when the field has been leveled! It takes a lot of practice, and a lot of discipline, but you will definitely reap the benefits if you do put effort into this!

Even when you are, you are not the best player in the world
Quote:
You can't really say that anybody is the best player in the world, because on any given day, it can change
Ivey gets asked about being the best player in the world constantly, and every single time he dodges the question diplomatically. It's fine to THINK you're the best player in the world, but keep it to yourself! There is very little upside to bragging about being the best at your stake and tons of downside. You're killing your own action by doing this, and you're encouraging people to pick apart your game and figure out ways to beat you. It also allows others to get ahead of themselves and overestimate their own edge in your games. Don't be a target, just kill the games and keep a low profile. If you really are the best, people will crown you king eventually anyway!

Keep the fish happy and treat them with respect
Yeah, this has been said a billion times before too, but its mind blowing how many people either forget or just don't do this. Watch any HSP or PAD where Ivey is playing with a huge fish. He never needles them, treats them with respect and talks to them like they're real people. Watch the PAD where he plays with Jen Tilly (yes, the one where he makes "the face"). In his exit interview, he praises how well she played, even though she made some obvious mistakes. Create an atmosphere where bad players are not intimidated and happy to come back again and again. In poker, fish are your customers, so practice good customer service! And yes, the customer IS always right! If the fish is talking **** to you, don't respond in the same way. Grow thicker skin, and keep your tone friendly and light (this will also benefit you when regulars try get in your head and tilt you)! Your not in a position to make demands on how they buyin, or criticize how they play. They're there to do what they want and have some fun, let them!

Lastly, remember to enjoy your money!
If you work hard, play hard too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L66a6qz1c0A



DW
02-19-2010 , 07:14 PM
First.
02-19-2010 , 07:26 PM
Very good read DW
02-19-2010 , 07:30 PM
nice post
02-19-2010 , 07:31 PM
DW - extremely well written. Enjoyed reading very much. Insta sticky imo.
02-19-2010 , 08:06 PM
lol i totally dont get what happened in that vid
02-19-2010 , 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtringer
lol i totally dont get what happened in that vid
02-19-2010 , 08:13 PM
This was a really great read. Op, tyvm!
02-19-2010 , 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Warbucks
[img]http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6215/iveyface.jpg[/im]
Oh I dont really watch hsp, is sahamies a fish in nlh?
02-19-2010 , 08:37 PM
50-90 hours a week i wish i could do it.

taking shots constantly is what i need to do yeah
02-19-2010 , 08:42 PM
:blackdot: for later
02-19-2010 , 08:48 PM
nice post
02-20-2010 , 12:05 AM
Really good post, A+
02-20-2010 , 12:24 AM
grunch till now, will read in morns, daddy woooh. literally just got back from bars and first thought is to go for a 4 mile runs, absolute love teh (jjjj)oggggssss


word.
edit: iterally not being a prat, actually gonna go fo 4 mile drunkk joggggg
edit2: (fml) actually did one oif the the other night at 6.3 am, so degen fml see ya'll in 20 mins yooo#!!!!!?!?!??!?!?!


edit:make that 35 mins, k?
02-20-2010 , 12:48 AM
Sick post, I wonder how many people will actually do a single thing you mentioned here?
02-20-2010 , 12:54 AM
[QUOTE Keep the fish happy and treat them with respect
[/QUOTE]

this is why im not getting flamed so much

thanks OP
02-20-2010 , 01:08 AM
k back, nakered, fml, shower bed time. tbh pbb a healthy habit going for a long jog after a drink sess. whatefverm this is about you so im ouuut.
02-20-2010 , 02:30 AM
nice post. Whats OP's screenname?
02-20-2010 , 02:54 AM
nice post.
02-20-2010 , 03:42 AM
Quote:
I would sit and grind out in the $75-$150 game all week to build up my bankroll to play in the $400-$800 game. I'd play, and he'd break me! I'd go back down and play $75-$150, build up again, and he'd break me again. This kept on happening. I don't think I beat him one hand in six months.
Awesome.
02-20-2010 , 03:46 AM
cool post
02-20-2010 , 05:30 AM
Keeping the fish happy is probably the easiest thing you can do. Especially the bad, losing regs (i'm not talking about BE grinders, I'm mean whales).
02-20-2010 , 07:17 AM
Thank YOU for putting in the ziigy Phil Ivey impression; I had completely forgotten about it, but cracked up when it first aired on PAD.
02-20-2010 , 07:39 AM
nice post
02-20-2010 , 08:52 AM
Nice post..What PAD is that clip from?

      
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