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100nl 3b pot 100nl 3b pot

08-09-2010 , 01:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorvacofin
I think you contradict yourself somewhat. If you're facing 'multiple street aggression oop' surely setmining becomes very profitable? And almost by definition, if we're setmining, we're going to be folding weak overpairs.

You've basically said it's never going to be profitable to setmine in a HU pot (since setmining will be reap most returns against a strong range, ie UTG).
I agree with you to some extent. Its like the way one of my best poker buddies used to play hands on UB. He would bet pot all the way with sets. He would also bet pot all the way with his bluffs. When asked to explain why he did this, he had a great response:

"Well, when I have a set I figure they will call me down because they will think I'm bluffing since I'm betting so much. When I'm bluffing I bet big so they'll think I have a monster and get away from their hand."

He was a winning player. Why? Because he read board texture and had a good sense of his opponents likely hand range. Also, he played tight and in position. This was years ago.

Its all about hand reading. My advice is geared to combat a solid tag with excellent hand reading skills.

I think typically Hero will be afraid with his sets on most boards and raise the flop, thus only getting the cbet out of villain. With a marginal hand that is best Hero will either fold to the cbet- or check call, and often lose the pot by folding the turn to a bluff. Or sometimes Hero will call the turn, maybe have the best hand, and then have a hard river decision, or face no bet if ahead.

So the river bluffing frequency of villain is a huge part of all of this. But a solid tag will be betting the river with bluffs a fairly optimally % of the time, putting hero in an awful spot. This is game theory.

There is no way to win against a good player passively oop unless you have the nuts (even if you know the bluffing frequency! this is covered in recent 2p2 books).

Also, I guess if Hero can soul read over the internet he could win.
08-09-2010 , 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coxquinn
man I 3b a TON but this is a terrrible 3b.... let me see if I can make 3b pots easier for you... to start, POLARIZE your range. Every time you click 3b say out-loud "for value" or "as a bluff". If you are not sure, it's probably a bad 3b. Second, look at villains opening range and play-back-at range from that position.

Check exactly how wide that guy is opening UTG and what his "EP fold to 3b" percent is... I'm guessing it's probably gonna be something like 50%, and even lower given you are >200 deep. So let's assume he's opening 16% UTG and only folding to 3b 40% of the time from EP (prob fairly close but you can get the real numbers)--- do you really wanna be playing this pot w/ KJo oop now, when 60+% of the time he's going to call or 4b? Was it for value or as a bluff?

Also... not to totally derail the thread but kagame I think is assuming you are OOP when discussing what to flat w/ and what to 3b with. If you are OTB I think 3betting KQo can be good and flatting AKo can be good. But you are on the button its a lot harder to **** anything up.

But for the love of God it's so opponent specific, look @ their ranges for opening and playing back at your 3b from that position (and whether or not your are 3betting in positon or OOP). Than decide if you can 3b as a bluff or for value before you just click raise. That will help you get a lot more comfortable in 3b pots quickly.
Yep.
08-09-2010 , 01:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorlaw

you can just flat this hand and out play him on flop. dont worry that you are out of position. You will get value from his QJ-J8 offen enough to more than comendate for that.
Maybe vs a donk. Not vs a solid reg.
08-09-2010 , 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorlaw
This is a bad hand to 3 bet. It folds out all hands you are dominating and keeps in hands dominating you.

better t0 3 bet 98s

you can just flat this hand and out play him on flop. dont worry that you are out of position. You will get value from his QJ-J8 offen enough to more than comendate for that.
lol man. Flatting KJo in BB here oop is just terrible vs UTG. fold pf.
08-09-2010 , 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagame
I agree with you to some extent. Its like the way one of my best poker buddies used to play hands on UB. He would bet pot all the way with sets. He would also bet pot all the way with his bluffs. When asked to explain why he did this, he had a great response:

"Well, when I have a set I figure they will call me down because they will think I'm bluffing since I'm betting so much. When I'm bluffing I bet big so they'll think I have a monster and get away from their hand."

He was a winning player. Why? Because he read board texture and had a good sense of his opponents likely hand range. Also, he played tight and in position. This was years ago.

Its all about hand reading. My advice is geared to combat a solid tag with excellent hand reading skills.

I think typically Hero will be afraid with his sets on most boards and raise the flop, thus only getting the cbet out of villain. With a marginal hand that is best Hero will either fold to the cbet- or check call, and often lose the pot by folding the turn to a bluff. Or sometimes Hero will call the turn, maybe have the best hand, and then have a hard river decision, or face no bet if ahead.

So the river bluffing frequency of villain is a huge part of all of this. But a solid tag will be betting the river with bluffs a fairly optimally % of the time, putting hero in an awful spot. This is game theory.

There is no way to win against a good player passively oop unless you have the nuts (even if you know the bluffing frequency! this is covered in recent 2p2 books).

Also, I guess if Hero can soul read over the internet he could win.
Okay, I'm trying to understand your points. Does this mean you never flat-call an utg raise with the blinds? And if you're concerned with balancing, isn't it bad that villain can take sets out of your range? I think as well this might not apply to many real-life opponents, since people often get married to overpairs and/or barrel too much into strong ranges.
08-09-2010 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagame
I agree with you to some extent. Its like the way one of my best poker buddies used to play hands on UB. He would bet pot all the way with sets. He would also bet pot all the way with his bluffs. When asked to explain why he did this, he had a great response:

"Well, when I have a set I figure they will call me down because they will think I'm bluffing since I'm betting so much. When I'm bluffing I bet big so they'll think I have a monster and get away from their hand."

He was a winning player. Why? Because he read board texture and had a good sense of his opponents likely hand range. Also, he played tight and in position. This was years ago.

Its all about hand reading. My advice is geared to combat a solid tag with excellent hand reading skills.

I think typically Hero will be afraid with his sets on most boards and raise the flop, thus only getting the cbet out of villain. With a marginal hand that is best Hero will either fold to the cbet- or check call, and often lose the pot by folding the turn to a bluff. Or sometimes Hero will call the turn, maybe have the best hand, and then have a hard river decision, or face no bet if ahead.

So the river bluffing frequency of villain is a huge part of all of this. But a solid tag will be betting the river with bluffs a fairly optimally % of the time, putting hero in an awful spot. This is game theory.

There is no way to win against a good player passively oop unless you have the nuts (even if you know the bluffing frequency! this is covered in recent 2p2 books).

Also, I guess if Hero can soul read over the internet he could win.
wtf r u saying. This is so garbage. Some of the players here take what you say for granted.. thats obv not helping their winrates
08-09-2010 , 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagame

"Well, when I have a set I figure they will call me down because they will think I'm bluffing since I'm betting so much. When I'm bluffing I bet big so they'll think I have a monster and get away from their hand."
i'm obv still on level 1 because i can't quite comprehend the genius in this...
08-09-2010 , 11:06 PM
^ lol +1
08-10-2010 , 08:27 PM
If you flat this deep you will have a stack to pot ratio of over 30.

By raising with a hand that is dominated by most of his calling range if he calls you have managed to get to SPR of 8. If he was a total drooler who raised UTG 50%, never folded to a 3bet and called down with underpairs etc on three streets post then this would be just about OK.

You give no reads on UTG.
Standard UTG open is around 13-16% range. Maybe you are dominating QJs and JTs in that range but that's about it.

He has AA,KK, QQ, JJ, AK,KQ,AJ all in that range which dominate you and almost all the rest of his range is ahead. You would only be happy if you flopped broadway or 2 pair.

Fold>Call>Raise.

Now I absolutely disagree with those who would fold small and medium pairs here. At a cost of $2 to see a flop and $207 left in his stack (SPR>30) I will call all day with pairs and SC's even OOP.
vs a decent TAG with effective stacks of 100BB's this would be marginal at best (although the 1/3 discount off the price does make it tempting - it's a trivial fold if he is decent and opens to 4-5BB's) but 200+BB's deep my only concern in playing small pairs is set over set.

But make no mistake - we are hitting the flop hard with such hands or getting the hell out for $2.

      
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