I would fold, a good lag player doesn't stack off like this. if he doesn't have aces beat, because he knows you are more likely to call him because he showed the bluff earlier and you have ACES in a live setting he isn't a very good lag. if behind calling 800 to draw to two outs and bdfd isn't very profitable.

after i read the range analysis I get it in too, but usually he shows us the goods. It's the stack a donk move from the good lag, he doesn't get 1000bbs in light. I noticed some lags doing this with great success.

Right. Every LAG has the "put in 1/9 of your stack bad and then hope to flop the world and then stack the aces" play in their arsenal.

Yeah, cause thats obviously exactly what i'm suggesting.

Then how exactly would one "practice avoidance" with AA?

This makes it a SNAP call.

3bet to 20+ (and do it with a ****ton of hands)

As played, 5bet to like 180. Let the ****er call 15% of his stack because you are "deep" and "he knows you have AA"

Just saw results.

lol @ how bad the lag played this. Like, pick a worse hand to 4bet with. I DARE YOU.

I feel so proud of myself because that's just what I was thinking.

oh, another thing. i would quit the game if the only player who is ~as deep as me is a good player.

I would have 5-bet bigger, given the depth. I'm not going to lay someone $1035:$85 when I've got a hand that I'm never going to get away from, especially if it's almost face up. You priced him out of calling 87ss, but you didn't really price him out of calling 77. Ideally, I'd be trying to get that ratio under 1/8.

I don't know if this is a legitimate or beneficial live trick, but I might announce raise, push the initial $35 towards the pot, then stack out and announce "$125 more", in order to not make the raise amount seem as ostentatious as it would if you announced the full amount directly. You do want to do everything you can to entice him to call -- you just want it to be as negEV as possible.

This isn't true. The fact that it's 5-bet and 1000bb deep changes a ton of things: hero's range, villain perception of hero's range, villains range, everything.

Even if you're correct that it "shouldn't" make a difference in some game-theoretic sense (and I'm not sure you are), it's still 1000bb and villain is likely going to change the nature of his play given that. Whether that be to apply more pressure or play closer to the vest is dependent on villain.

Not all "4 SPR"s are created equal, and PNL explicitly tells us as much. The same numerical SPR can be 'good' or 'bad' given different circumstances, different types of villains, different numbers of villains, etc.

Removing combos of AdXd from his range probably hurts your equity more than the added 3% from running diamonds helps it.

Board: 4s 5d 6d
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.737% 62.71% 03.03% 21107 1020.00 { AA, KcKd, KdKh, 66-44, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 4d3d }
Hand 1: 34.263% 31.23% 03.03% 10513 1020.00 { AcAs }

Hand 0: 68.242% 64.86% 03.38% 17338 903.00 { AA, KcKd, KdKh, 66-44, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 4d3d }
Hand 1: 31.758% 28.38% 03.38% 7586 903.00 { AcAd }

I agree that the 5bet was too small. Basically, as long as you offer him <7:1 implied odds, you can stack-off at will and be happy.

From a game-theoretic POV, getting it in there with AA post flop with this SPR is virtually unexploitable (maybe only slightly so because the 3bet and the 5bet were on the smaller side). Folding on the other hand can be a huge mistake. Of course this being a 5bet pot changes the ranges and the lines, but if we don't have a very good read on Villain (which we don't because we never saw him playing a 2000BB pot before), I think we should take the unexplotable line, especially after making a large cbet like Hero did.

Isn't "slightly unexploitable" kind of like "slightly dead"?

Honestly, with all due respect, I think you're being a bit fast and loose with game theory terminology. An unexploitable strategy is one where no matter how your opponents alter their counter strategy, they cannot improve their EV. But that's of dubious applicability here. We don't know anything about hero's 5-betting strategy. We just know that he has aces this hand and 5-bet it this time.

If you are using a more layperson-ish definition of unexploitable - for instance, if you really are indirectly referring to cutting villain's implied odds below zero - we can probably show that hero didn't succeed. If we give three things as being true: a) 1035:85 odds, b) hero having AA 100% of the time, and c) hero stacking off 100% of the time, it's possible it could be mathematically show that setmining with YY and folding AYX flops is a +EV counter to hero's play. (Getting ~12:1, need ~10:1, etc. I'm not going to do the math now.)

Again, define and characterize your terms. If folding is to be a "huge mistake", we'd have to give villain an appropriate range that makes the difference between the EV of calling and the EV of folding sufficiently large. Pot odds after the CRAI say we need about 30% equity. So what is huge? 31% equity? 35%? 40%? (10% of a 2000bb flop is a lot of bb, IMO!) But can you get villian's range to be wide enough to give us that much equity?

Also, if villain is never c/c here, hero might want to analyze how b/c works as a strategy from the perspective of the pot odds before the bet, i.e. 780 to win 1020.

this is super hard to say wihtout actually being there, but i'm leaning towards thinking that you're completely crushed here every time.

and i would have checked flop (not being results oriented)

Wtf is up with the ranges here? you add ton of 2paircombos but only a few semibluffs? He's calling a lot of SCs here and not shoving them if he has TP+OESD? I don't think so.

Also it's not that much more then a potsize raise.

1000bb doesn't matter that much in a big 5bet pot with a stack pot ratio of 1-4.

He's using the game theory correctly. If you raise to an amount that gives villain <7:1 on the preflop call, you CAN'T MAKE A POSTFLOP MISTAKE if you get it all in. Folding would be the only mistake.

Yes, if Villain plays perfectly, the call of the 5bet is +EV with a PP. However, the entire line is still -EV for Villain and +EV for Hero, because Villain puts in 120BB, i.e. 1/8 of the stack preflop. There's no hand that's going to flop 2-pair+ often enough to make putting in 120BB preflop +EV for Villain. In that sense Hero's line is unexplotable.
Also, in reality, I doubt Villain will be able to play 100% perfect. E.g. it's pretty unlikely he'll fold a set on an A-high board. Finally, Villain will have a draw or a hand like KK here some percentage of the time, making this line even more +EV.

So, if Hero is not folding, his line is +EV no matter what Villain does. If Hero does fold, his line could be -EV, depending on how Villain plays.

It's even better than 7:1 actually. If Villain plays perfectly and folds in set vs. overset situations it is 10:1 (because sometimes we will flop an overset, and sometimes we will suck out on the turn or river). If Villa stacks off in set vs. overset situations, it is at least 12:1, maybe better, haven't done the math.

i read this thread thinking the entire time it was 4d5d6d..b ut there were only 2 diamonds on the flop. i might pitch it i dont know..

puke in mouth. Just because he won doesn't mean he's the better player and should be handing out advice.

Let's say we're in a 1/2 game w/ 100 BB stacks. Hero (CO) opens to 7, BB 3-bets to 24. Hero calls with 87s. Would you rather BB's range be (AA,KK) or (AA-88, AK-AJ, KQ, JTs-54s, J9s-64s, J8s-74s)?

BTW, I think the 3-bet size is fine (given that you're also 3-betting a wide range), but if you've been playing that straightforward, or more importantly, if villain has no reason to believe that you have a 5-bet bluff range, then the 5-bet needs to be larger.

This is like the easiest call ive ever seen, wtf is up with the range from Dazarath? Its a 5bet pot, and if this guy you play against is close to semi decent, he dosent have those **** hands like J9s 54s++ No way.

And if ur scared of doing this call, dont play live, or leave when ur 2 deep to play +EV..

yeah im not even going to read through all five pages. If this is so much higher than your usual limits, you're making a mistake. Also if you're not comfortable playing this deep, plz dont get in the game in the first place. Make your raises larger as well. And fwiw I'd get it in here every time, IF i were comfortable/confident in my 400BB+ deep hand analysis, which I'm not.

Also remember guys: 400bbs deep is pretty common in live games, atleast here in Oslo, and people play like its 100-150bbs..