Ran into a weird spot and I wonder what the play is on the turn. Hero was in BTN, 8 handed and essentially everyone limped, SB raised pot, CO and I called (QJT9ds). Smallest stack is 100BB deep. I'm about 200BB.


Flop:95Q rainbow
Raiser bet pot, and we both call.
Turn:7 putting two clubs on the board (Hero has no clubs).

Raiser bet approx 50BB and HJ called leaving about 50BB behind.

Hero (approx 150BB): Is this a call, raise, fold? What if hero has approx 200+BB?

wait, did i read this correctly? you limped on the button with QJT9ds?
and then you called 3 way on Q95r?

Yes. I called because I had a great flop amd there was no need to blow people out of the pot. I was also hoping to turn a FD myself, thinking I might need it.

limped called a raise preflop.

Raise pre first time. No idea why you'd limp this hand on BTN.

Raise flop. we are probably ahead. If not we block QQ and 99 and have 12 outs v 55. I don't think our hand is strong enough to slowplay though

Raise pre,as played raise on the flop,as played raise on the turn,250bb deep same story.

300bb deep i would start to consider just calling when initial raiser pots.

Thanks for the input. I limped pre because people had been calling fairly wide and would bomb flop if they hit reasonably well so I wanted to keep the SPR fairly high.

As played I folded on turn.

The river brought the flush. SB bet the last of his chips and CO called with his rivered NF.

I didn't see what BB had (he played fairly wide but who knows).

The CO had AQ85ds (Flopped top-bottom 2 pair and turned NFD+gutter). So he had about what I thought he had.

They call super wide and then fold a ton, better keep the pot as small as possible with a hand that has huge flopability. That way when we flop better than then a large percentage of the time they fold and lose less money.

Just think about your statement for just a little bit, you basically say you limped and then give a bunch of contradictory reasons why raising is really good.

IMO the caveat is being able to thin the field pre. If "nobody" is folding to your pre-flop raise then you're just playing a game with shorter effective stacks and you're not a favorite to flop better vs the field. For example in this particular hand if I raised pre there's a good chance that I gii on the flop or turn vs the same players and therefore the outcome remains unchanged except that I double up the CO.

This is part of the reason why I asked about this hand with a deeper stack and the as played shallower stack.

That's the beauty, we don't have to be a favorite against the field. Why are you even calling here with this amazing hand, you're not a favorite against the field with it.... The flop goes a million ways literally no hand in the game is a favorite against the field, you should be folding 100% of the time according to your logic.

Best hand in the game here, don't have more equity than the field, should probably limp/call this pre, game is tough.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

82,686 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AdAcJdTc	27.67%	22,057	1,704
30%	14.47%	11,242	1,495
30%	14.61%	11,299	1,628
30%	14.42%	11,190	1,521
30%	14.53%	11,280	1,519
30%	14.30%	11,071	1,565

That would be the correct play, I don't see the problem with this, I would be fist pumping this all the way to the bank. Stop being results orientated.

You are arguing to limp rather than raise pre the first go around here when you should be 3-bet squeezing pre after SB raises.

pre: raise > call > fold
flop: raise > call > fold
Turn: doesn't matter money should be in the middle already

It is difficult to realize that equity unless players call off lite on the flop. In anycase in this game, generally speaking, they weren't so for me seeing the flop relatively cheaply seemed like a better play since we miss a large percentage of time.

In this case I hit fairly well.

What.

Ok, so you thought this was the situation:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

4,920 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 95Q

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AcQ8c5	24.02%	1,182	0
QsJsTh9h	75.98%	3,738	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

240 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 95Q7

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AcQ8c5	37.50%	90	0
QsJsTh9h	62.50%	150	0

...and you decided the best choices were call flop and fold turn? and are now defending them?

Just limp/call pre. seems the least worst action.

Then again I almost certainly double SB up so your line obviously best. gg.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

89,598 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QsJdTs9d	16.78%	13,391	3,406
30%	16.53%	13,797	2,106
30%	16.58%	13,843	2,094
30%	16.70%	13,989	2,030
30%	16.63%	13,907	2,057
30%	16.77%	13,976	2,186

When CO called turn I thought he had some combo-draw with a FD (ex, KJTx, AQxx, A w/suited rundown, etc). I wasn't too worried about the other guy for some reason.

On the turn I had 150BB and it was 50BB to call getting 3:1. I thought about raising but figured the CO would've never fold because he only had 50BB left.

I don't believe you, if you actually thought that you would have shoved turn, instead of folding.


What a disaster of a hand. I'm not convinced you want to learn anything and am having a hard time figuring out a reason. This thread just feels like a little boy sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "LALALALALAL, I can't hear you". It's hard to even discern if this isn't just some troll attempt.

If you've come here for validation for your terrible line and are angry when people point out you misplayed damn near every single decision point in this hand you are not going to be a happy person.

If the CO is going to call my shove, why would I shove when I want him to fold?

I'm not looking for validation and I don't get angry. I just wanted to know how bad the turn was as played and whether it would play differently based on stack size.

I've answered questions* as to why I played the hand up to that point, but that's not what I was asking.


*Why raising preflop with rundowns may not be optimal when the hand will still end up multiway and rundowns don't play well multiway.

Why are you worried that CO would not fold when you are favorite against his

assumed holding?You could raise all in,was 60% not enough for you?Really don`t understand your fold.

Based upon my stack size 60 percent wasn't enough going multi-way to the river. From my perspective it's almost akin to flipping a coin. I just didn't want to take the hit to my stack and start over.

OP your fundamental framework for thinking about hands is broken.

No matter how many players are in the hand, if you have more equity than the average player in the hand, getting more money in the pot is a good thing.

Ya but in the end you still have to realize it. It's much more difficult to realize that equity in PLO

No ****, but when you have a hand that flops as well as QJ98ds, you're more likely to realize it than other players.

With a very floppable hand you want more money in the pot because you're going to be able to take it down much more frequently than other players.

If there are 6 players calling preflop, all you need is to make putting more money in good for you is to take down the flop > 1/6 of the time

"Realizing equity" is a dumb phrase that was popularized by training sites (I think RIO first) to sell more vids. It doesn't contain any new insight. All "equity realization" is is the relationship between EV and equity. If you have 50% equity and an EV of 50% / 25% / 75% of the pot, you realize "100% / 50% / 150% of your equity". Good and nutty hands tend to capture more of the pot than they would in a pure equity split (hence they "realize >100% of their equity" if you want to put it that way).

The sum of everyone's EV ends up equalling the total pot minus rake. So to say that AAJTds doesn't have an EV share > equity would imply that either less good/nutty hands do, or that money is somehow disappearing from the table with no explanation (because less good/nutty hands would "realize even less of their equity" and the sum of EVs would leave out lots of $ that is in the pot*). Same with hands like QJT9ds, although the difference should be less than with AAJTds.


*Another explanation is the game having a huge uncapped rake.

Yeh, that's true, in some games of PLO people fold the best hand on the turn when they have reads they are in front.

If you can go all in, and you could do that on turn you would

Realize your equity. Unless you think realizing is winning exactly 60% or whatever you had.

Ya, I know that but the caveat is that you really should be heads-up going in. As I said the table wasn't playing that way (see the the chart I posted yesterday of my hand vs 5 random opponents. Post#13). I didn't see a reason to bloat the pot pre.