Maybe some can move this to the right forum? Don´t know why I cant post there....

Hi guys,

me and my staker are in a difficult situation:

I have been playing PLO Headsup for years now and we never had any problems. Overall I was up 53 300€ for this deal. We agreed beforehand that I am allowed to split/cashout any profit right away. So every time I was up I cashed out right away according to the cut (we started at 50/50 improving stepwise depending on profit to 80/20 in my favour). My last cashout was 5 month ago and since then I dropped 9400€. I recently decided for personal/health reasons to quit poker within the next 2 months. The problem is that we never set proper rules for what to do when I want to quit while in makeup.
Are there any “standard” solutions for this? Are these 9400€ to be considered as regular makeup or is this to be considered as a debt that i owe the backer for cutting profit that turned out to be none (my cut of the 9400€)?

debt or at the very least debt @ some % of the dollar

OP, you say every time you are up. What does this mean?. You have to define a time frame for this. Like every time you have a winning session. Or a winning month.

What time period corresponds to the 9.4k EUR loss?

thats the problem: we didnt define a time frame. whenever i was over the starting bankroll I could cash out.

lost the 9.4k in 5 months

If you didn't have a set arrangement then you owe your staker 9.4k, or play until you're out of makeup.

Just be a man and pay back your makeup. It's really not that hard. All other solutions are BS.

in a properly worded staking contract there would have been a certain time/hand limit after which i can cash out a certain % of my winnings so i can cover my living costs while the staker doesnt run the risk of getting freerolled (bankroll gets a downswing cushion). not doing this was obviously our big mistake. if i was an ******* i could interpret our contract as: time limit is 1 second and % is 100, your fault.

if we had agreed upon a 1k/month cashout for living costs and i hit a very long downswing from which i see no coming back because games dry up/mindset is crushed/whatever and therefore go into makeup i donkt think i should be held accountable with my "real job money" after i quit the deal. i did not break any contract rules and the risk of losing money to a downswing/scamming is the very reason a staker gets % of my winnings. the risk that the stakee cant play the games anymore (in my case i just cant take the stress anymore) is similar to the risk of the games drying up in my opinion and therefore is a risk the staker has to take. but obviously the stakee shouldnt just quit at a moments notice, which is why i said "within the next 2 months".

saying i have to pay 100% of the mu back, would basically mean going on a downswing while not breaking any rules is the same as scamming.
actually losing my whole bankroll on purpose and calling it a downswing would have been better than quitting while in MU, because my staker would just cut me then.

that being said i obviously dont want to abuse the mistake my staker made by not making a proper contact and just say i dont owe him anything. i offered him to play 9400/my average hourly rate = hours, which i think is by far the most reasonable option. paying him back whatever i have left from pokerwinnings (which is very little after a 5 month downswing) is the only other option i see. but i absolutely think i should not have to pay money from a normal job i start after i quit poker.

opinions?

So you feel you should be able to unilaterally change the terms from 50/50 to some higher percentage for yourself because you've been losing?

please read the whole post and elaborate on your opinions or not answer at all.
one liners are obviously not helping in a complicated situation like this.

thank you

makeup is not worth 100 cents on the dollar, you made him a good chunk of change, nothing appears to be malicious, and i think both parties should be pretty happy to meet in the middle. pay him 4500€ with the caveat that if you play a hand of online poker in the next 12 months you owe him the remainder, and both walk away reasonably satisfied imo.

Nice!

This of course sounds reasonable, but to me this sounds like a good opportunity for the OP to go through "something difficult" to take his personal development to the next level. Be a man and handle your **** OP. It doesn't have to be quick or pretty. And you're allowed to complain along the way.

hello

In MTT staking it would be common for you to owe 0. Makeup is not debt and you cannot be forced to continue to play. However, whenever you decide to start again your backer has a claim on your winnings up to the amount of the makeup. My advise tho: propose your backer to meet somewhere in the middle like cts recommends.

It's not really makeup; what happened was the horse ended up taking a larger share of the profits by withdrawing early.

But he didn't withdraw profits early, they just decided to do a profit split. CTS solution is v reasonable.

I think in a cashgame stake the if the horse is winning, the first cashouts should be made only to pay the staker back first his stake amount, so after you end up in a situation where all the money the horse has on his accounts is 50-50 so he cant end up into makeup anymore. Exceptions can be made if horse needs to cashout for living expenses.

In this case paying back 4500e sounds reasonable.

You were up 53.3K, so you cashed out about 44K? How was this split?

Why can't you quit in makeup (and stop playing poker) and not owe anything? What's the point if the backer is taking no risk?

This.

Am I missing something because otherwise feels like OP should be able to quit and that's it the MU is wiped. Obviously if OP started getting backed by the same person again he'd have to clear the previous MU?

R u people serious 2008 member and you think someone losing in poker should just beallowed to quit? Rofl what have u learned in 8 years here.

wtf is going on in this thread.

80% of the makeup is the absolute maximum he could consider paying but the whole point of backing is for the player to not risk personal money. The amount previously won is of (almost?) no relevance, it could be over several years, why would you expect OP to be able to pay their makeup?

Generally accepted terms are that you can only quit a staking arrangement while in makeup if you are quitting poker.

The problem isn't that he had makeup when he quit its that by cashing out constantly you in effect make it so that you are going to always be able to quit in makeup if you chose to and since he was winning early he effectively left in makeup because of this when he wouldn't have if the money or some of it stayed in the bankroll. I think if you ever play poker again you owe him the full makeup or have to give him the option to finish the stake so you would get out of makeup but if you never play again you shouldn't owe him anything although quitting without notice 2weeks/a month/ some amount of hands w/e is kinda scummy so that he can choose to quit when your out of makeup if he wishes and you get out

I see no wrongdoing here. You were playing/making money while the games were beatable/you could beat them. You cashed out winnings after a certain period (in your case, instantly), that was agreed. Now, after a long period of not winning, you conclude that the games are tough and you can't win in them anymore. You decide to quit poker altogether. It is the stakers responsbility to check whether you (stakee) still beat the games. It is not like you suddenly tried to gamble or w/e with his money after a long period of a successful relationship.

He has to eat this up. It is a part of a business relationship like this. He can't expect to be profiting all the time.

The point is if the backer already received over 9400 this isn't even makeup.