Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 4 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

BB: $313.60
CO: $331.05
BTN: $558.80
Hero (SB): $495.20

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with 2 A 5 T
1 fold, BTN calls $2, Hero raises to $8, BB calls $6, BTN calls $6

Flop: ($24.00) K Q 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $18, BB calls $18, BTN calls $18

Turn: ($78.00) 6 (3 players)
Hero bets $56, BB calls $56, BTN calls $56

River: ($246.00) 8 (3 players)
Hero ?

BB is an okay player, but pretty nitty (30/5/1.5), button is a pretty big fish (37/18/2) and massively over values weak made hands. Its pretty obvious that one of them likely has a set and the other a flush. Whats my plan?

Nobody is betting this for you. $100 looks good.

I don't like preflop raise oop.

I think betting ~220 given your read on BTN has the J or T-flush and isnt able to let it go is best. he might even calling with something worse if BB folds (which he most probably will do) hoping you have the bare ace.

check call and maybe muck the second best hand.

Yuh I c/c this. At the very least if the BB doesn't have the straight flush, they'll both see that you were 'trapping' the river, or button bets and then you c/r him because there's no way the BB would check the straight flush 2/3 to speak on the river barring the best soul read of button ever.

I think we kick ourselves SO much when we go to c/c this and both guys check behind -- one with the J hi flush. BB also knows button is a donkey, so he easily could be calling with a set expecting BTN to stack off on the river with whatever, not to mention that I'm sure he knows you are capable of double barrelling with the naked A or some lower flushes as well (if he's the one with the flush).

I think we have to bet this. I like 180ish I think.

bet around 1/2> the pot. the only hand that's going to raise u is the stone-cold nuts. if that did happen, i'd tank and most likely fold giving them respect.

i think check calling is a weak play in this situation. you're missing a bet when you know 2nd nut flush is likely to pay you off. and it could be likely that you're up against set/two pair with one of them having a baby flush. i'd definitely make them pay to see if their hand was good.

actually, if you bet half pot or a little more and get raised its a pretty easy fold on the paper.

its not a easy laydown though and most people here would probably call (or shove the rest in) in the heat of action, DaBiggs however would of course lay it down because he is obviously some super human.

This wouldn't be that difficult a bet-fold if you're gonna lead. $100 and fold to push

what about if you play against a guy that know its a super easy bet/fold for you with the nut flush and you definitely are capable of making that fold, then he can raise your river bet with just the Q or J, having a flush himself or not..

I don't see why we're putting people on straight flushes already instead of putting them on far more likely second best hands. I think you have to bet, and you're only gonna get 1 caller since there's no way both of them pay off a value bet. Like why is it that they have to have a straight flush after calling the turn? How about the far more likely case? I don't get it.

U cant put anyone on the straight flush here (though it is def possible). I bet half the pot on the river ~$120. You may get called by Q and J hi flush draws, and at 1/2 if you are raised you can be 90+% sure that you are beat. I've seen people pay off pot on the river in this spot with the flopped flush of 8 hi (where they imagine you are making a play after flopping a set).

more likely they think its the bare ace.

I find it very rare to have 2 players calling pot bets on both flop and turn when I flop nut flush and fully bet it OOP.

I also have trouble putting BTN on a flopped set, since he did not open for a raise. And even if he is dumb, I do not see him calling last on turn with a bad flush when someone has already called a full pot bet. I dont know, of course it is likely he has a set or a bad flush, but I do not feel it that way. I think many posters underestimate the possibility of a straight flush with such weird action.

Still, I would not fold this hand for a pot bet, for the reasons given by hattifnatt. So c/c I weak-tightly like.

the possibility to beeing raised by a straight flush blocker? I was kinda ironic but it would still be a possible but sick play on a pretty high level between two players that had played a lot.

things like this is still worth considering (esp more "common" examples), at least in sense of playing optimal and not doing stuff that is automaticly easy to exploit etc.

I agree, not to many player will go crazy and pot the river up with the Qh to rep the sr8 flush. That is just to risky a play with the strenght you've shown. I bet 120 or so hope to get paid off but if he does raise then I fold and dont even ponder if it was good fold of not just move on to next hand.

I tried the straight flush blocker bluff once it was insta snap called in disgust. I like a bet of 175ish bad blayers will pay off lower flushes here all day if will more than make up for the times they have a straight flush here. if button is massively bad like you said theres a chance he'll pay off with just j10 for a straight.

Results: I had a decent read on both players and felt like BB either has JThh or KK/QQ and would not call a river bet with a set, and the button, though he is a big donk, would not call much with a bad flush after seeing the BB c/c two streets. I also had a really nasty feeling but that may have been the pack of cigarettes I chain smoked. I checked, planning on c/c'ing the button and c/f'ding to a decent sized bet from the BB. They both checked. BB had KK, button had like 8h5hTT.

Obvious brainfart on my part, but I think with my reads my line is not a whole lot worse then bet-folding in terms of EV. Also, with the day I was having, I probably would have puked if I led out and got raised and I wasn't in the mood to taste my lunch again.

i could definitely lay it down if i thought the BB had the straight flush.

i put the btn on QQxxhh and figured he was calling since he was getting about 3:1 on each bet. this hand did not play like the straight flush was out there and i'd value bet the river to get paid off.

Checking because you think a single opponent won't pay off a bet with a set is fine, but I think it's far more likely that to this action with two of them in the pot, at least one of them has a flush and you're losing value by not betting a value-oriented amount. Yeah sure you'd hate to get raised here, but is the extremely slim chance one of them has a STRAIGHT FLUSH reason enough to check? Straight flushes don't grow on trees...

It's too bad that I didn't get this in before results were posted, as now we're going to get a whole flood of "ZOMG, why didn't you bet" replies where people were taking different lines before.

I had already planned on saying bet $140 though as anyone that calls the flop and turn with a flush will at least call one more bet for that amount. Even $160 doesn't have much risk of getting a flush to lay down.

If you do bet $140, there's no way you're laying down for $90 more from BB when there's only one combo that beats you and button's donkish enough that you might want to call a raise from him too in a HU pot.

When BB is never betting or calling worse, and the button is almost always folding to a bet but may occasionally bluff or value bet worse, I see nothing really terrible in checking, though betting like 1/2 pot is definitely better.

There is also the metagame factor of negative tilt equity in a bet. I was a bit tired at the time, and getting shoved on, especially by the button who is really awful, might have cause me to play badly later in the session.

you are going to get felted by a straight flush like twice a year in this spot, meanwhile every time you check here you are losing between $100-200 in value

I hope to god you're just using this to justify your play after the fact and you don't really factor this into your decisions.

Also, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that "button is almost always folding to a bet but may occasionally bluff or value bet worse". From the fact that you admit that betting is better, I don't think you really believe it's true. In fact, I'd guess button calls a river bet after BB folds ~1/2 the time, never bluffs, and only V-bets with the K-hi flush, even checking that occasionally.

betting ~120 and folding if BB raises, alright. but checking and folding to a bet from BB just sounds pretty insane even though I can see the reasoning behind it. alright, if you check, BB bets, BTN raises then you can fold but if you check, BB bets and BTN folds folding sounds somewhat sick.

and as most had said including myself in my first reply, just bet the river. I actually think straight flush possibilities (at least when its only one combo) pretty much can be ignored (in terms of playing the actual hand, in terms of game theory things of course it can be good to look at) because its so rare and can cause to make other bad decisions. at least until someone "shows" that he "must" have it.

losing with an A high flush to a one combo straight flush (when board is not paired) unless its like 250bb+ deep can be considered more or less like a cooler regardless of circumstances.

I havent put very much thought into this post so it might be some flaws in the reasoning but hopefully some points was made and it make some sense.