Hi all,

I have been exploring playing 50bb deep in a casino near where I live and was wondering if anyone has some tips.

What I am trying to avoid is big swings, as many people live just stick around, very difficult to isolate pre, very hard to not get MW, and since equities run so close pre having 50bb on the line seems a good idea to reduce variance.

I am trying to play tighter and very straightforward, but I am not sure how much non nut suits go down in value, if a wrap or even a flopped straight is good enough with little back up. Deeper I know how to navigate these spots and basically am just more patient to be a huge equity favorite. But for 50bb i seem to be in spots where i could have as Little as 25 - 30% but maybe even close to 40% equity with SPR 1 or less than 1, so it seems I am not making a mistake, but am definitely not printing.

Is it best to still wait for premium settings before committing, even if short?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Maybe I can give some examples.

QsTsTh9c7d on the BTN. MP raises Pot (we are playing 5-5 so pot is 15), I call given position although hand is marginal. BB reraises to I believe 80 or 85. MP calls and I also call given that I close the action. (Was first call or second call a mistake? Or both?). Pot is now around 250, I have about 170 behind, so SPR is below 1.

Flop comes Jh9h8d.

We have nut straight, blocking others from having the nuts, but no heart draw and not much else going on either.

BB checks, MP pots, I call, BB gets it in as well so 3 way all in on the flop, I am shortest but no one very deep anyway.

Irrelevant to my question but 2 hearts come and MP had Q high flush draw, I believe just a gutter SD and probably just a pair of 8 and some overcards. BB has missed aces with I think some backdoor straight or flush possibilities.

So i was probably over 50% in this particular situation, but worst case could have been 22 - 25% against same straight and FD / set / two pair.

Other example, kind of similar 3 way 3 bet pot, so I am again with SPR below 1.

Have KsQhJh9s6s in the CO, BB and BTN in the pot as well.

Flop comes QT2 rainbow, backdoor hearts.

BB checks, I get it in, BTN folds, BB calls, he had aces and holds with 2 small cards coming on turn and river. To note he had the A high heart draw and also a Q and a J, so a Q would not have helped me, K would have given him a bigger straight.

So J, 9 and 8 were my only clean outs, avoiding running hearts.

Probably still getting enough odds, but the question is should I tighten up more and not play this pre in the first place? Or play flop passively?

Choose a different game like NLHE or LO8. PLO is high variance. PLO5 is even higher variance.

If you're going to play short-stacked, try to find a full table (9+ players). The more players, the lower the variance.

Also, you have to be tighter with a short stack because you can't play the more speculative hands since the payoff is not there with your short stack.

Read JNandez's book: https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Sma.../dp/1912862190

It's for PLO but I've found it helpful for PLO5.

Post your hands here.

I've played some short stacked PLO5. I have some free time. Send me a private message whenever you post a hand. I'll try to take a look at it.

Easy fold pre. This hand is not good. You need to be tighter with PLO5 than PLO.

I fold even if everyone is 200bbs.

Double-suited to the Ten, maybe you can 3-bet. But you can't call. The hand is not good multiway.

You really want QJT at the top of your rundown/pair and only one gap to call because those two things make it more nutted for multiway hands.

As played, you have to repot on the turn to force everyone to pay. With SPR of 1, you're should not worry about someone else having the same straight. With low SPRs, charging the draws is much more important than protecting your stack.

Hm, this one is borderline. I open this at 100bbs. I guess I would flip a coin and 50/50 this as an open-raise at 50bbs.

So looks like BB 3-bet with Aces and then checked?

If so, you can just jam because you have 41% equity against AA, which is more than enough at SPR of 1.

This is why PLO5 is such a high variance game.

These close equity spots happen all the time because everyone has a lot of cards in hand.

If you really want to play PLO with low variance, try to find a 9+ handed game and just PLO4.

Then, read https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Profe...dp/1904468306/ he's got a decent section on playing with a short stack in PLO.

Thank you, very much appreciated. The table is full, i.e. 9 players with one sitting out each hand since it is 5 card. They do not offer PLO4 anymore, it kind of happened overnight that they introduced PLO5 and then it stayed. I am comfortable with either one of the two, even if PLO5 is higher variance.

Perhaps what i am trying to avoid is not variance itself, but busting my bankroll and missing out on playing further, since i think over time some people make many mistakes and it is just a freeroll or complete domination. There are players who go all the way with completely missed aces, J high flush, bottom trips with bad boat outs, etc. Once I even flopped top boat and one guy had KK and just called me down all 3 streets saying "I didn't believe you had AA" - which of course i did not but he hadn't even thought that i had a boat.

I read your comments on the two hands being quite marginal pre, and i see their flaws as well... I will take the advice and properly tighten up significantly more. I just don't want to tighten up to the point that I am playing 3 hands per hour and losing 10bb just by watching.

I have Jnandez book, and used to be a mastermind member.

You might experience less swings sitting with 200bb since your stack off range will be much stronger. At 50bb you will just flip a lot.

Thank you both for the tips!

I guess I also need to accept variance more.

Your variance would increase with smaller stacks - you're basically going to be all in a lot with 50 bb with small edges. If you want to decrease variance drop to 4 card, figure out how to increase your win rate, and maybe avoid slightly marginal spots.

The 2 streets with the highest variance are preflop and the flop where its very hard to be under a 40/60 dog with anything reasonable. The further you play into the hand the less variance there is. Playing 50bb poker means you are almost never seeing turns or rivers with a pot size bet left and are therefor playing the most volatile way possible.

Yeah you have no idea of the variance in PLO and PLO5 has got to be worse, crushers have regular 50 buyin downswings, sometimes in a single day.

Sitting deeper as suggested is probably solid advice.

Thanks a lot, I think this is a very good drop of insight. Increasing edges when the board texture and equity is more defined is a better way to go than flipping pre and on flop.

I tried sitting deeper and it went well, albeit I did feel a bit uncomfortable at 300bb since nuts can still change on turn and river.

This is quite scary, I mean if your bankroll is 100 buy-ins and you lose close to half, I would personally just not believe that I am able to win at all.

I did have 10-15 BI downswings, but it was mostly tilt and actual mistakes.

Variance is indeed hard to grasp, it is invisible and just hard to keep track of, i.e. am i getting outplayed or is it just the wrong side of variance

And on PLO5 vs PLO, I cannot play 4 card since the casino stopped oferring that probably almost a year ago.
At the beginning it was quite nice since few people had any idea how to adjust to 5 card and although few people are true experts now, almost everyone picked up a few concepts and this combined with the variance make it less lucrative atm.

There is an upside to this that no one has mentioned.

If you play your 50bb stack properly, you'll look like a reckless player to many of your opponents. Once you've run good and won a few buyins, this image will stick with you and people will pay off your nut hands more than they should when you're deep.

I didn't read the replies.
So you are playing PLO5 against aggressive loose players who think QhThTc9s7d is a "marginal" hand and who think flopping a 2-flush non-Broadway straight with no redraws is a through ticket.
Sounds like a gold mine to me. It is only a gold mine for you if the others play significantly worse than that, such as willingly putting in all their money drawing to 2nd nut flush or straight or under-full.

Besides flopping top full house QQT or TT7, its hard to imagine a "through ticket" flop for this hand. But nobody is going to put in all their money on the flop unless they have you tied. Even then, AKJ[QorT]x is in the hunt against you. Flop T32 retains the nuts only with a T/9/8 turn card. T86 gives board pairing or a J for redraws, and 8h6h2c are only has redraws if you turn a 5 unless head up against another flopped straight making your "flush" draw some value.

PLO5 deep stack loose games:
Against a table of loose players, the nuts is going to be out far too often; and you have negative implied odds with anything less. Tied nut straight is very common and is a virtual synch of someone else bets or raises. That means you need the A-flush, top full house, or a straight with multiple redraws to play. Playing non-nutty hands like yours is a disaster as it is very difficult to put in any money on the river with such hands. Having a pair of queens flopping top set is fair, but lower trips is asking for trouble as you can easily be 2nd set and your card makes other fools their straight draw.

This pretty much leaves As+++, AA++, KK+++, and A-Broadway long run downs like AKQT+. "+" means good additional value, such as a little worse than the other hands listed, such as Ks, A with the KK, and QQ. I would say that AhAdTh8c5c is a "marginal" hand. You can get away with lesser hands against passive players who let you fold 2nd nut hands with confidence.

And if you want to keep your variance down, the above squeaky tight play is a no-brainer.

-Louie