What would you do in the spot and why?

Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 Pot Limit Omaha Hi $3 Ante - 5 players
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SB: $6428.00
Hero (BB): $2942.00
UTG: $5265.00
CO: $2530.00
BTN: $865.00

Pre Flop: ($45.00) Hero is BB with K J 9 A
3 folds, SB raises to $75, Hero calls $55

Flop: ($165.00) 5 4 J (2 players)
SB bets $140, Hero calls $140

Turn: ($445.00) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($445.00) K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $333, SB requests TIME, SB raises to $1444, Hero requests TIME, Hero ......

Fold if he sees you as a good player.

I think he's been at the table for like 50 hands and he doesn't know me at all.

his value range is way too wide for you to be bet/calling here after your turn action

Gordo.... I agree -- 9/10 times i check this down on the river. Now -- after the bet is made do you call or fold? My river bet definitely puts me in a tough spot if I get raised.

I actually mispoke here.. but.. .i'll clarify later.

Your river bet is standard.. I was mainly just saying that I don't expect Eric to get out of line here too much. Plus, he has a few hands in his value range for c/ring here as opposed to usually being polarized to just the one nut hand.

I'd fold because I don't think he expects you to fold a hand you're bothering to bet and it sounds like you aren't at the point where it'd be a leveling game

can eric have the nuts?

if it can be discounted significantly I think he's good enough to fold a set vs a shove, even if he's getting a brazillion to a one, since his value range here is going to be pretty wide

i don't think eric would buy us checking back the nuts on the turn enough to fold anything in his value range

3 bet preflop

i have a hard time believing eric checks the nuts here on the turn v. an unknown, and while 444/555 are possible , KKK/JJJ are less so based on our holdings.

he knows you don't have a set or the nuts since you didn't raise flop or bet turn. as played, i don't really like folding.

eric will sometimes check the nuts on the turn there

I'd fold the river since, as was mentioned, he could be value c/r'ing a lot of hands here (including the nuts imo).

I'd also 3bet this preflop against most players but I guess this depends on your overall strategy.

What do you guys bet/call the river with after taking this line?

Do you guys think that Eric, when he's got good hand on the river, will go for a CR on the river most of the times? Why?

good hand = naked straight that want to CRAI on the turn in order not to play the river oop, sets that after the turn check-check he realizes are good.

I'll try to add a few more pieces to the puzzle on this hand.

This hand was at the end of a 6-7 hour online session at 9 AM. I was gonna quit around 8 AM but a giant monkey hopped onto the other 10-20 deep plo table. So I decided to give it another hour. I took i think 30-40 seconds of my time bank for this one.

Eric had also just lost a couple of reasonably sized pots. One where he had a big wrap on the flop of a 853(85) board and bluffed at the river with his 4679. Additionally he lost another hand with QQdd vs the flopped nutts. Does this change anything?

I had also just played a hand where I bet 240 on a flop of 8h 8c 6h checked back on turn and river of 7x 7x -- 9h7hTcJd. I took some time on the river before checking back -- I might value bet this river against some players but this particular player b/c I don't think he looks me up with anything worse outside of possibly 975x -- he showed AAhxhx. Does this change my image for you guys?

Spot on.

I haven't played much with Eric Liu, but I would be shocked if he couldn't show up with the nuts here. I also agree with Gordo that his value range can be quite wide here considering the turn action. That said, your hand is near the top of your range, and he is smart. In general, this is a fold. If you have good reason to think otherwise, go for it, but that is the kind of play that I don't think can be analyzed very well in text form thru discussion of a couple of recent hands. The fact that he may think you don't value bet rivers very thinly vs him certainly makes this closer to a call.

Cliffs: Standard should be fold. If you wanna do otherwise, whatever. That is your own read during the match.

Edit: This is closer to a call if the board were like 58J4K or if there were a FD on the flop IMO. On this board, a call is pretty much a levelling war.

i should prolly try to clarify: i def. think eric can have the nuts/555/444 here (disclaimer, i've played only a few hundred hands with him), but i think in general against someone he doesn't know well he'll go for a c/r on the turn with the nuts when there was a f/d on the flop that he thinks you might now bet or he knows you like to float and fire turns (which he can't since he doesn't know you). certainly sometimes he'll have it here since you look pretty weak so he may think he needs to let you catch up some, but i think he'll have it less than he would in these other situations i've described.

really i think 555/444 make more sense since he'd bet the nuts a lot in case you had sets/2p on the flop since you prolly wouldnt bet turn now.

that said, i agree with gordo/jro that it's an unlikely spot to get out of line. i guess i think it's a much closer spot than most people think.

if he doesnt think you can fold (like jrosealm said) then i'm totally in the fold camp. i just think it's such an easy spot for a good player to read for a 2p hand that calling has to be considered.

I'm happy with the feedback... Now I'll give both my thoughts during the hand and the results.

Preflop: As I said it was late, I did not realize I was in position... the guy to my right just sat out. I thought Eric was the button and did not want to play a bloated pot OOP.

Flop: I finally realized I'm in position -- and I think the call is standard.
Turn: The check behind is standard.
River: I value bet b/c I think there is too much value not to value bet this hand. (Gordo I was trying to say b4 that 9/10 times I probably FOLD this hand not don't value bet -- I didn't want to give away the fact that I ended up calling).

At the time, I thought that given my image with the previous hand that Eric would THINK that I wouldn't value bet the river light -- I wasn't sure if his raise meant he had the nutts, thought his hand was good and thought I would call, or was trying to get me to fold to his hand that he no longer thought was good.

I took a long time to think about it -- but I decided eric COULD be bluffing enough given my image that I found a call. (PB Jaxx's logic).
He ended up flipping over [3d 8c 5c 7d]. Once we see his hand I think his thought process is obvious.

Although it was right this time to call I still have trouble figuring out if it the right play. Now that the results are posted does it change anyone's mind?

I like his river play especially with his hand. Most people probably don't show up with a strong hand after checking the turn. KJ is at the top of your range and it still was a tough spot. I think most people are folding to his raise way more than 65% of the time after taking that line.

I do think it was an excelltn play.. i almost folded... and would think many would fold in this spot based on the responses... however..

Everyone's saying i'm at the top of my range.. which is true... but I think i'm near the bottom of my value betting range for this particular spot? Which is sorta why Eric's bluff is so strong... imo.

What other hands am i value betting?

I don't really like the river v-bet very much. What worse hand do you expect him to call you with?

I get that checking back is meh for balancing purposes but I really don't see us wanting to bluff this river often anyways. Am I wrong about that?

V-betting here is standard, eric liu will show up with a worse 2 pair combo to call off with here a good percentage of the time. His only concern here is seeing hero show up with a set that, given the way the hand was played, makes almost no sense whatsover.

if this is true river is a shove