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Jamming Naked FD?

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09-11-2010 , 05:50 PM

#1

U Gota Little 1

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 122

You are 3 way 100 BB effective and and have a naked NFD. You know all three hands will go to the felt on the flop, are we right sticking it in, being that we already have a small portion in plus dead money?

Does it change if you are second to act, or last to act.

Example hand below, thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players - View hand 919218
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: $10.15
UTG: $10.11
MP: $18.18
CO: $3.85
Hero (BTN): $12.03
SB: $8.15

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with A

3

7

4

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.05) T

8

2

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.60, SB raises to $1.99, BB raises to $7, Hero requests TIME, Hero raises to $11.68 all in, SB calls $5.81 all in, BB calls $2.80 all in

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09-11-2010 , 05:53 PM

#2

Maffff

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,065

It's sorta fine but only just. I like a pair with my nutflush draw and if I got a couple of overcards like AK or AQ then it's a moneymaker.

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09-11-2010 , 05:57 PM

#3

iseeyou

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 460

it is 0 EV if you get really lucky. also, check back the flop

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09-11-2010 , 05:59 PM

#4

iseeyou

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 460

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maffff

It's sorta fine but only just. I like a pair with my nutflush draw and if I got a couple of overcards like AK or AQ then it's a moneymaker.

having an extra overcard here doesn't really help. it's a no brainer fold imo

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09-11-2010 , 06:06 PM

#5

ObsidianOrder

adept

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,057

Why check back flop, surely all value hands should have donked?

but now fold >> 4bet shove with naked FD.

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09-11-2010 , 06:09 PM

#6

iseeyou

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 460

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObsidianOrder

Why check back flop, surely all value hands should have donked?

but now fold >> 4bet shove with naked FD.

this flop hit their range pretty hard, we have a nut draw that can't withstand a lot of heat. why would we bet?
and you can't really assume they would have donked if they hit

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09-12-2010 , 03:31 AM

#7

AveeMaria

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 3,714

Not a big difference between a call and a fold.
I like the chk back on the flop aswell. You got the BDSD aswell as NFD and youre given a free card. Your FD isnt really premium since you have so many low cards. I think youre going to be up against a set and a wrap+FD more often than not i.e. TT vs AhiFD vs Jc9c7 or something which isnt good since a few of your outs are going to be in opponents' hand

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09-12-2010 , 05:21 AM

#8

polski3

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 137

I usually bet out here as you often take it down straight away, rarely get re-raised on a board like this (it is pretty dry) and even when you do you can still just about call it off.

At PLO10 you'll also find lots of villains who will chase lower flush draws when you bet that will pay you off when it hits and probably fold to 3 barrels when it misses.

If you check back you're going to lose the pot if a club doesn't hit and not make anything if it does - in which case you might as well have folded pre.

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09-12-2010 , 09:17 PM

#9

AveeMaria

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 3,714

Quote:

Originally Posted by polski3

I usually bet out here as you often take it down straight away, rarely get re-raised on a board like this (it is pretty dry) and even when you do you can still just about call it off.

At PLO10 you'll also find lots of villains who will chase lower flush draws when you bet that will pay you off when it hits and probably fold to 3 barrels when it misses.

If you check back you're going to lose the pot if a club doesn't hit and not make anything if it does - in which case you might as well have folded pre.

Board isnt dry. Its going to hit a lot of 2p/wrap sort of hands which we really dont expect to raise us tbh but at plo10 Id assume hand ranges play a lot wider so youd except a balance between trash/set of 8s or 10s not to mention that I would expect wraps to overplay this hand pretty often.

Hand isnt weak but cant stand heat. thats my reasoning for checking behind

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09-13-2010 , 03:55 AM

#10

polski3

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 137

That makes no sense at all to me. I think you're just being results oriented because the flop bet was c/r in this spot.

This flop is realistically as good as it gets for a hand like this, so if you don't cbet now, there's no point playing it. You're not going to win anything by checking behind and waiting for a club.

You likely have 30%+ FE and still around 30% AI 3-way.

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09-13-2010 , 04:28 AM

#11

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 14,262

I would usually check here. lower flushes will pay us off if we get there, as they assume the nfd would bet the flop.

We are in bad shape against a set, not much better against 2 pair as we don't have a pair ourselves (unlike when we have AKQ4 for example where we would be a decent favorite over 2 pair) and we are also behind to a pair and a wrap, op w/fd etc....

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09-13-2010 , 05:44 AM

#12

Jinx

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,142

flop bet marginal. easy fold once its back to you. close with Gutshot

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09-13-2010 , 08:02 AM

#13

mayor_haggar

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,273

Quote:

Originally Posted by polski3

That makes no sense at all to me. I think you're just being results oriented because the flop bet was c/r in this spot.

This flop is realistically as good as it gets for a hand like this, so if you don't cbet now, there's no point playing it. You're not going to win anything by checking behind and waiting for a club.

You likely have 30%+ FE and still around 30% AI 3-way.

Not results oriented at all. the t8 on board makes a lot of 2 pair, set and pair+wrap combos, we'll get c/r on this board fairly often 3 ways. micro players especially like to c/r preflop raisers, and don't really donk often at all.

Since we lack a pair or any other draw and only have 9 nut outs, I'm almost always checking this back 3 ways.

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09-13-2010 , 09:12 AM

#14

polski3

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 137

Ok, that's fine but then how are we going to make money by playing this hand?

We're not going to hit a flop as good as this very often and we're not going to get paid very often if we wait until the flush hits to bet - so I don't really understand how we expect to make a profit with this hand?

If this is the best line on a flop like this (basically playing for showdown value) it seems clear we should just fold pre-flop, or at best limp.

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09-13-2010 , 12:32 PM

#15

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 14,262

Quote:

Originally Posted by polski3

We're not going to hit a flop as good as this very often

Not true. We will hit this flop in a meaningful way around 35-40%, that's when we actually have to take a flop and don't just win it pre. When we either hit the flop hard or whiff we can b/c or b/f accordingly, but when we hit that ~20% range where we really don't want to get c/r we can just check back and play a reasonably high spr situation in position.

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09-13-2010 , 03:02 PM

#16

mayor_haggar

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,273

Quote:

Originally Posted by polski3

Ok, that's fine but then how are we going to make money by playing this hand?

We're not going to hit a flop as good as this very often and we're not going to get paid very often if we wait until the flush hits to bet - so I don't really understand how we expect to make a profit with this hand?

If this is the best line on a flop like this (basically playing for showdown value) it seems clear we should just fold pre-flop, or at best limp.

We turn a profit with this hand because we have potision and nut potential and we like to think we play better than our opponents. Not because we shovel money into the pot without thinking about why we're doing it.

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09-13-2010 , 05:53 PM

#17

cocktails

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,599

i dont mind the flop bet if you bluff alot when it gets checked to you on boards like this.. i do bluff here alot so i lean towards betting

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09-13-2010 , 06:43 PM

#18

gimmetheloot

banned

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15,371

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinx

flop bet marginal. easy fold once its back to you. close with Gutshot

/thread.

id check back flop

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09-13-2010 , 09:58 PM

#19

Deadcalm94

adept

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 885

Quote:

Originally Posted by polski3

We're not going to hit a flop as good as this very often

lol run better dude.

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09-14-2010 , 01:55 AM

#20

billywest

adept

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 780

Quote:

Originally Posted by polski3

We're not going to hit a flop as good as this very often...

Screen name? and where do you play, please...

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