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getting a bit fancy on flop getting a bit fancy on flop

07-11-2016 , 02:04 PM
Honestly I'm torn between all options on flop due to awkward stack sizes. Bet sizing is also an issue because I'm not sure if want to reopen action or not. No reads on the shorter villains, the deeper villain is bit a aggressive but seems OK.

Hero is BB with A4K7

    Merge, $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 4 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37389778

    SB: $28.89 (28.9 bb)
    BB: $112.58 (112.6 bb)
    CO: $253.98 (254 bb)
    BTN: $28.84 (28.8 bb)

    Preflop:
    CO calls $1, BTN raises to $4.50, SB calls $4, BB calls $3.50, CO calls $3.50

    Flop: ($18) 9 K J (4 players)
    SB checks, BB bets $12, CO calls $12, BTN raises to $24.34 and is all-in, SB folds, BB raises to $103.02

    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 02:22 PM
    This seems good to me. We have almost 42% against the naked QT so we obviously can't fold. The problem here is when CO is trapping or just calling down with a naked QT with no redraw. If I am CO with QT I am almost always calling here and either hoping one of the short stacks rips it in and you do exactly what you did, or the turn is a brick and would be raising that. He could also be calling with sets and two pair + flush draw and not raising to get the short stacks money in to sweeten his odds even more. Might not be hoping for the raise but just the flat from them.

    If I was you I would be ripping this in just like you did. We are a slight dog to KJ and could conceivably get that to fold and we could probably get him to fold his naked nut flush draws. We are only really in jail against the NFD and sets. Not sure on the table dynamic but if we can ever ISO against the BTN it's a huge win.

    The best move: sit out when the BB gets to you. This table is a disaster for you. We have very different stack sizes, so that changes play between players heavily and the guy we are deep with has position on us and we have position on the short stacks. Even if you have a decent skill edge on the table I think the position and stack sizes make it not worth it.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 03:10 PM
    Quote:
    The best move: sit out when the BB gets to you. This table is a disaster for you. We have very different stack sizes, so that changes play between players heavily and the guy we are deep with has position on us and we have position on the short stacks. Even if you have a decent skill edge on the table I think the position and stack sizes make it not worth it.
    Good call. I don't think people pay attention to stuff like that as much as they should be.

    As far as the hand is concerned, that looks like a lot of trouble if the CO calls you on the flop. You're not going to get to peel another card if he has q/10 and you're behind almost 100% of the time if you don't hit your flush. I think the turn is a check/fold if you miss the flush.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 03:16 PM
    This is a slam dunk 3-bet pf, even moreso vs these short stack sizes (and we don't mind if CO cold calls). This is a top 8% hand and you're getting value here with a 3-bet.

    As played I would start by checking and probably check shove vs the BTN if he cbets and playing very cautiously if CO leads.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 04:09 PM
    I've seen worse plays. Yolo
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 04:13 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by redrooski24
    This is a slam dunk 3-bet pf, even moreso vs these short stack sizes (and we don't mind if CO cold calls). This is a top 8% hand and you're getting value here with a 3-bet.

    As played I would start by checking and probably check shove vs the BTN if he cbets and playing very cautiously if CO leads.
    +1
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 06:08 PM
    I agree with preferring a 3-bet based on my experience with shorties. I'm not a fan of the lead on the flop unless you have a good read on the CO. If the CO is any bit decent/aware, his calling range is much, much stronger than normal since he knows both short-stacks can re-open the betting.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 06:14 PM
    +1 nobrainer 3bet imo as well
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 06:38 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by redrooski24
    This is a slam dunk 3-bet pf, even moreso vs these short stack sizes (and we don't mind if CO cold calls). This is a top 8% hand and you're getting value here with a 3-bet.
    Not saying 3bet is bad, but I think we're less than 50% vs button's range, so its hardly a slam dunk value-play.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 06:40 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Darkfangs
    The best move: sit out when the BB gets to you. This table is a disaster for you. We have very different stack sizes, so that changes play between players heavily and the guy we are deep with has position on us and we have position on the short stacks. Even if you have a decent skill edge on the table I think the position and stack sizes make it not worth it.
    Yeah if these stack sizes were frozen in time I wouldn't play the game, but shortstacks double up and rebuy full (or at least middle), and it was also a Monday afternoon on Merge so you gotta keep games going somehow.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 06:50 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NMcNasty
    Not saying 3bet is bad, but I think we're less than 50% vs button's range, so its hardly a slam dunk value-play.
    What




    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 07:20 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sauhund
    What




    Playing around a little he is kind of right which is surprising to me. We are only 50% against top 20% of hands despite us have a top 8% hand. The hands draws are very nutted though and I pretty much always 3-bet this especially in a squeeze spot.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 07:21 PM
    ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
    600,000 trials (Randomized)
    Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
    AdKs4d7s49.63% 285,11325,362
    20%50.37% 289,52525,362

    but whatever, not going to fight with people or talk ranges over 1 or 2 percentage points of equity. The question is the flop.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 08:02 PM
    I don't know why anyone who want to 3bet this - button pots it with 28 bbs and going 3-4 way with a hand like this is much better then hu where we're prob a dog....flop seems like a check and see how action develops
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-11-2016 , 08:13 PM
    Why do people think button has a 20% opening range? He would be the nittiest button alive in PLO. Something like 50% is a more accurate range, and loose openers get as high as 80% and think they are right to do so (they aren't). Not to mention you often times get the rest of the money to go in as a massive favorite on the flop.

    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-12-2016 , 07:54 AM
    It's not an opening range, cutoff limped.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-12-2016 , 11:10 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by redrooski24
    Why do people think button has a 20% opening range? He would be the nittiest button alive in PLO. Something like 50% is a more accurate range
    In theory that should be accurate but in practice I don't believe it is anywhere close. Try parsing your data and see if your history shows a 50% opening range on the button on a limped pot. I'm sure it gets higher as you increase in level. At lower levels 20% is probably pretty close to accurate, +-5%.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-12-2016 , 12:01 PM
    Your eq vs BTN is completely and utterly irrelevant. For very obvious reasons. Your eq 3 handed vs BTN and SB on the other hand...
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-12-2016 , 04:09 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Oink
    Your eq 3 handed vs BTN and SB on the other hand...
    Is pretty much irrelevant because its only a matter of 1 or 2 equity percentage points. I mean jfc, lets break down rake and rakeback structure while we're at it.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-14-2016 , 07:33 PM
    Holy wow, the people actually entertaining the thought of a 20% RFI BTN player are clearly delusional haha.
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote
    07-17-2016 , 09:46 PM
    Pot the thing pre
    getting a bit fancy on flop Quote

          
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