Live 1-2

EP straddles 10
MP Hero raises to 20 with Ac Js 9h 7c (2k stack)
HJ folds
CO Villain 1 calls 20 (1.8k stack)
BTN Villain 2 calls 20 (1.6k stack)
SB folds
BB calls 20
EP calls 20

Villain 1 is kind of a fish. He plays a lot of hands pre-flop. He’s more careful post-flop.

Villain 2 is a big fish.

My image is TAG.

Pot 101

Flop Jc 9s 3c

SB checks
BB checks
Hero bets 60
CO calls 60
BTN raises to 120
SB folds
BB folds
Hero calls 120
CO calls 120

Pot 461

Turn 4h

Hero checks
CO checks
BTN bets 350
Hero calls 350
CO pots (unknown amount)
BTN frustratingly folds

I ask the dealer to pull the 350 from each player into the main pot, then give me an exact count of his remaining chips. The dealer cuts out about 1,100 of his stack and leaves about 200 behind.

I tell the dealer he’s all-in—his raise is less than the pot. The dealer keeps arguing with me, and this goes on for a couple minutes.

I’m getting angry because I’m not being given a total count. Other players are vocally irritated too because it looks like I’m wasting time.

I eventually just count his two partitions individually. 1,115 + 230 = 1,345. 1,345 to call (he’s all-in—the dealer is an idiot).

Hero?

Also, as I was trying several times to calculate the main pot (before his raise) out loud, the dealer kept interrupting and arguing with me. The main pot is 1,511 (in my mind it was closer to 1,600–but I was never given a quiet chance to calculate it). His pot all-in is 1,345 more. It took at least three minutes to figure that out.

Also Ts 6s 5h was flashed by someone pre-flop.

depending on buy in im 3b the flop with this hand. and jamming this turn. if its a 500 cap maybe not. but this is barely 150bb. hand is more than good enough to ship

Flop we can make it 500 and stack off vs a player described as a big fish.

Why do you care about an exact count? Is the decision gonna be different if it’s 100 more? Let them count, this is a good opportunity to think anyways. I am stacking off, always have nfd to fall back on.

Thought about 3-betting the flop too. But my min-raise pre (which I know y’all hate!) made it a little deeper / higher SPR.

He’s been so careful that he’s almost always going to have a set when he shoves (probably 99xx). The only reason I considered calling is because there’s still some chance (albeit very small) he’s spazzing with a hand I crush.

100 or 200 makes a difference. If it’s closer to 1,000 more, it’s a snap-call. If it’s closer to 1,500, I’m probably folding. For me it was a really close decision.

That’s why I was so irritated—the dealer couldn’t ****ing count the pot correctly! So I had to replay the hand to calculate the pot, then count his remaining stack while the dealer is just ****ing arguing with me.

I never had time to think clearly and eventually made a decision (that I already thought was close either way—but I could’ve been very wrong!) out of sheer irritation.

I understand your frustration and the dealer is a moron. But this is certainly a perfect example of when the bet/raise pot every time rule sure would've made things simpler.

Raise to 30 pf.
Bet 150 on flop
Careful Fish calls
Big Fish makes it 300 (fdsd)
Folded back to you and you make it 900
How does Careful Fish like 99 now

I just prefer not having to fold hands like 8876 and KK94 single-suit from early position. So instead of opening full pot as the first one in and having a 15% VPIP, I prefer to open for half pot (min open) and strive for a 20–25% VPIP. (I open for full pot first in on the BTN or from any position if there are limpers.)

If the table is super soft (there's always a fish with deep stacks in the blinds) and I'm rarely getting 3-bet, then I'll just open full pot with all my hands with 20–25% VPIP.

I totally agree that if I had 3-bet the flop, careful fish has to seriously consider folding 99xx. Big fish also has to consider folding 33xx, or I get it in against a big but inferior draw.

This is probably an easy 3-bet on the flop in a bigger game. At low stakes 1–2, anyone who raises the flop super-multiway is going to have the bigger sets more often.

Waiting for safe turns and rivers, people just call with the bigger sets too. Which is why I put the careful fish on 99xx when he jammed, and I thought there was chance he could have JJxx too.

Is my hand still way too strong to fold to his turn jam getting only 2.1:1 (in my mind it was 2.25:1 because I could never get the pot counted correctly)?

Get a count of his incorrect bet, ask how much he has behind and pretend like he put it all in.

Which is how you wound up in this predicament after a near perfect flop.

Let's get an accurate count & range first from V, but IMO it's likely a rage fold/rack up before going on monkey tilt with a still deep stack.

You mention both v are fishes
But are they aggro? passive? how do they play?
You mention co more careful as in tricky passive, only bets/raises w/nuts?

As played you're only behind sets.

I guess it's a possibility but we have outs still.

I mean JJ kind of make senses if he's tricky passive. If he's aggro, he can have somethig like 568T w/fd.

Then the big fish minclicking sets make no sense, I'm pretty sure we are ahead of him?

You can and should have a limping range live if you are playing deep enough. Hands like shitty Kings and Queens should be in this limp range, along with some nutted garbage that cant profitably open like A753. Its imperative the table is deep enough though. If you are playing 2-2 with lets say a $5 straddle and everyone has $500 or less, we dont limp and we just fold these hands and play a raise only. If we are playing a game like 2-5-10 and everyone has $3k or more, we can incorporate limps.

It's imperative however we understand how to play postflop and have an edge. If you don't have an edge or don't know if you have an edge, just fold and play an open pot strategy.

And contrary to what you believe, what you've heard, what everyone at the table will say when you do it, and the laughs and ridicules you will get, you absolutely can and should have both a limp fold range and an open/fold to 3b range.

I can't tell you how many times I've been ridiculed for raising over a limper, get 3bet, get 3-4 cold callers, then I fold my hand because it doesnt play well multiway and the entire table looks at me like I just took off my alien mask.

I used to get ridiculed for doing this too when I was playing in better games. Now no one cares when this happens, but games are worse.

Tried running this hand through solver a bunch of different ways. FWIW (and I know there's no way to get an accurate simulation for this hand), in no situation does solver ever fold to the turn shove.

I got ridiculed once for limp/folding in a 2-5 NLHE game and it sadly threw me really off.

Give villain specific ranges. Run it thru propokertool oracle.
Compare equity vs pot odds.

What kind of ranges are you giving villain when he c/c flop then x/jam the turn?

I honestly have no idea how to put people on very specific ranges in PLO. In my mind he has mostly 99xx, sometimes JJxx, rarely a random spaz (33xx, inferior big combo draw, pair plus strong draw, two pair plus weak draw). I should probably call if I was being laid 2.5:1 and fold at 2:1. At 2.1:1, I probably should be folding this hand too.

But Echemondo and OmahaDonk are really smart, and they never fold this hand. And FlopHero is telling me it's a huge mistake to fold no matter how I try to write the simulation.

The reason they never fold this hand is because they don't put villain on specifically sets. They'll probably say gg if villain somehow had a set here. What villain c/c flop with a set then x/jam turn w/ a set??? uber tricky passive.
They play a different game, they don't know the opponent as much as you do.
But if you believe villain only has sets here then do your math and that's your poker right there.
If you believe villain is way wider than sets, then stack off everytime this spot.

The information is imperfect. There's no way to know for sure. I've only played with him for six hours.

It's probably never a big mistake to call. But it's potentially a big mistake to fold. So I guess we should call.

One of the most enlightening threads I've ever read on this site-and I was here on day one-regarding any form of poker. Thanks for posting and to all who commented.