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Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec

10-16-2016 , 06:25 PM
[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50, $0.10 ante Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $28.90 (57.8 bb)
Hero (BB): $50 (100 bb)
UTG: $78.65 (157.3 bb)
MP: $59.20 (118.4 bb)
CO: $94.06 (188.1 bb)
BTN: $98.47 (196.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K A 4 K
UTG raises to $1, 3 folds, SB calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.60) T 9 6 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks

Turn: ($3.60) 5 (3 players)
SB bets $1.71, Hero calls $1.71, UTG folds

River: ($7.02) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $6.67, Hero raises to $26.68, SB calls $19.42

SB is 72/12 - 20 hands, playing one plo table + 2 nlhe tournaments

1) Bet or check the flop?

2) As played, call or shove the river?
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-16-2016 , 08:01 PM
Just keep betting 1/3-1/2 pot till raised.
Until then checking any street is very bad.

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Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-16-2016 , 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Rays
Just keep betting 1/3-1/2 pot till raised.
Until then checking any street is very bad.

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Yeah, I like that line. Don't expect UTG to bluff almost never this spot.

P.D: But rec could on turn and river, so I am not sure now.

We hardly will get 3 streets values against the reg when betting vs 2 players (1 rec) from his viewpoint. So we would be betting from the flop to get 3 streets value from rec lower flushes, but we can always raise turn or raise his bets IP, and let him bluff, I like more my line now lol

Last edited by Mindead; 10-16-2016 at 08:27 PM.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-16-2016 , 08:31 PM
Oh, and 3b pre. You're nearly 55% against top 10% of hands.

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Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 05:18 AM
Czech Rays, vs deep stacks oop and a tiny preflop open this hand is ok not to 3b in this spot, I'd call pre too. We have a very polar hand, opponents are not going to fold, and you'll need to play kinda face up, as you'll need to bet for value having such a rec in the pot, so the UTG will have an easy live, and you not. So our equity edge means nothing here.

Mindead, I'd just called here. We don't have a lot of info, but looks like this guy is not rushing anywhere and just tries to get nuts and get paid while playing tourneys ))

His preflop statistics is also an indicator of his passiveness. Depending on any other info that I could have on him, I could both call and even fold. But I'd bet myself as well, probably, starting from turn. I suppose, have the UTG checked this flop, he doesn't have nut flushes.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 05:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVO
We have a very polar hand, opponents are not going to fold, and you'll need to play kinda face up
This is far from a very polar hand.

You're only face up if you're overall 3bet OOP is geared towards premiums. So yes, if you 3bet like 2-3% from the BB than you are face up. If you have a normal (dare I say balanced??) 3betting range from BB than you shouldn't be face up.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 07:17 AM
Reasons to 3bet or not:

Being deep.
We aren't deep. 100bb is online standard.

Being OOP.
Not ideal but we must learn to play aggressively vs passive players. Anyway we are IP vs small blind.

We have to play our hand face up.
Says who?

We'll need to bet for value.
Er, yes. That's a good thing.

We have a polar hand.
Do you mean a good hand? Yes we have a good hand.

Our equity edge means nothing.
Pot equity and fold equity is all there is in poker. The rest is just ego and sunglasses. We are 55% against a normal UTG range and a whopping 62%+ against SB's wide range (let's say 50% here.)

Preflop is a small part of PLO but we have the choice to make the pot $13.20 with eff SPR of 2 and 3 respectively with nearly 38% equity 3 way. That is moneymaking poker.
If these edges aren't enough for you then it's going to be very hard to make money overall.
You can balance your premiums with occasional double suited rundowns if board coverage is a concern.
As played postflop, vs passive players the obvious exploit is betfold the second and third nut ad infinitum. Checking and and hoping to for people to spazz / valuebet much too thinly is an unrewarding enterprise.

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Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabomushroom
This is far from a very polar hand.

You're only face up if you're overall 3bet OOP is geared towards premiums. So yes, if you 3bet like 2-3% from the BB than you are face up. If you have a normal (dare I say balanced??) 3betting range from BB than you shouldn't be face up.
What's your "normal" squeeze% vs UTG and a caller? 2-3% dare I say?
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gay_on_tse
What's your "normal" squeeze% vs UTG and a caller? 2-3% dare I say?
I will have to check as I'm not sure, but I would say somewhere around that yes. That doesn't mean it's optimal, right?
Fwiw, this is one of the things I'm working on currently (3betting more in general) and it has done wonders for my overall winnings and red line.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 07:43 AM
I dunno what is optimal, but not very many have a high number here. Except one of the bots.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 09:40 AM
Hand looks fine to me.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 12:37 PM
Its an UTG raiser but its also a minraiser, and I'm almost always 3betting minraisers with strong hands since they can have basically anything. A minraise really isn't much different than a limp.

River is just a clear call. Villain has to be betting turn and river and calling a shove with something like a straight for a raise to be good. You have some fishy stats on sb but I don't know if he'll actually be that bad.

Flop check I like. I just don't think 2nd flush (actually third) is really good enough to be just straight stacking off with so I prefer to get my two streets of value after my opponent's have shown weakness so it looks I could just be stabbing.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMcNasty
Its an UTG raiser but its also a minraiser, and I'm almost always 3betting minraisers with strong hands since they can have basically anything. A minraise really isn't much different than a limp.

River is just a clear call. Villain has to be betting turn and river and calling a shove with something like a straight for a raise to be good. You have some fishy stats on sb but I don't know if he'll actually be that bad.

Flop check I like. I just don't think 2nd flush (actually third) is really good enough to be just straight stacking off with so I prefer to get my two streets of value after my opponent's have shown weakness so it looks I could just be stabbing.
The only thing worries me a bit is his river sizing. But if he is only calling the shove with Jhh+, we have 60% equity vs his calling range.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote
10-20-2016 , 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindead
The only thing worries me a bit is his river sizing. But if he is only calling the shove with Jhh+, we have 60% equity vs his calling range.
You have 51% against 70%!7%:(Jhh,Qhh,Ahh,8h7h), and 49% against the same but with 60%!4%. That range is quite optimistic, I think.

Amusingly, as preflop ranges shrink, it quickly becomes necessary for villain to bet/call straights. Probably a valuable lesson.
Almost 2nd nut flush river vs rec Quote

      
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