V1 (button) is an experienced reg who is pretty solid but known to get a little creative and gambly in big pots. he is playing well so far tonight. V2 is a mediocre fit or fold passive reg.

V1 button straddles to 25, blind folds, hero opens to 80 with AA6T, V2 calls, V1 calls. hero starts hand with ~2700, V1 covers, V2 has like 1k.

flop (245) Q34

hero leads for 140 (??), both V's call. in retrospect i think i should probably check this one OOP. V2 can have lots of 2 pairs, combo hands, non-nut draws here once he flats. V1 should have reasonable draws but will definitely call non-nut FDs in position here. he can also have some strong made hands like sets.

turn (665) 9 putting BDFD out there

check, check, V1 bets pot, hero thinks for a bit and calls, V2 folds.

V1 loves to play draws or combo hands aggressively in this kind of spot. both he and i know that V2 would have raised a set on the flop so he should be folding to a PSB here often. my plan is to pot any heart or spade, check/evaluate on anything else.

river (1980) A

check, V1 pots, hero?

Ooph. That he gets creative makes me want to call and say nice hand if he has 52. He’d have to have barreled turn with that hand though so I would discount a little. He can also have QJT combos that bricked although we do block some with the T in our hand. He could also be value cutting with worse sets if you think he’d bet pot with them. Lots to think about this hand.

We don’t have a 5 or 2 in our hand which sucks. But we’re pretty much top of range here and for that reason I think we should defend versus this bet even though I’m not thrilled and expect to lose sometimes but not often enough to fold. I think we’re good 33% of the time here against this V.

He can definitely have plenty of combo draws that brick and of course plenty of 25+fd. Not having a deuce or a 5 hurts a lot. Also he shouldn’t be too surprised by our hand. We’re supposed to call but there are plenty of players I would fold against.

Can he bet worse for value? I realize that not all of his river bets with two pair will be "for value." But fully expect that his bigger draws will result in AQ/A9 some times and those may be tough to check back. This answer plus his lack of turn restraint and his ample bluff candidates may make it hard to say confidently he'll underbluff.

i don't think he's betting worse for value here. he is smart enough to know AA is a big chunk of my range. maaaaaybe he gets a little overexcited with QQ but i think we are basically bluffcatching.

Why did you check river?

given that we expect a lot of turn semibluffs in his range as played, what worse hands do we think we are getting called by? give him a chance to barrel off here. yes he will check back with showdown value a lot but i think he usually folds those hands to a bet anyway, he is good enough to know that even QQ is a bluffcatcher here.

ok then, what's the question you have on river?

if he's actually barreling off enough to make it worth calling. it's not that i love checking here, i just like betting even less.

We have the 2nd nuts on a board where the nuts is unlikely, pretty clear bet imo. Not to mention we block all the draws and unblock all the lower sets. There's a saying in poker 'If you don't feel comfortable check/calling then betting is probably better.'

Not sure how someone you describe as 'solid, creative and gambly' only has the nuts here. He has a pretty clear value bet with almost any set (depending on blockers) He can bet wider for value since spr is so small he can't get c/r(you almost never have the nuts or AA since you can't c/r)

I think I like a flop check. But that wasn't the question. On river, think the 9h could have let Villian pick up a bunch of draws. so I think I'd call river. I mean, 52xx is possible, and V's range is wide preflop with the loose passive player in and V having straddled OTB. But, the other two side cards must be working really well with that 5 and 2 for it to be in his range. In other words, what kind of hands could Villain call preflop and want to pot turn instead of taking free card vs. two players? I'm not coming up with many examples, anybody else?

i didn't say he only has the nuts here, but i do think he is only value betting the nuts here. knowing this villain and our dynamic, i don't think he is betting any set for value here except maybe QQ. most live players in this spot just are not firing again with hands like bottom set when the nuts change and the pot is already huge. i see your point from a theoretical perspective but it doesn't align with what i see most live regs doing in practice.

yes, we have 2nd nuts, but on the flop, villain usually needs a reasonable draw or made hand to continue - we block spades so the other option is low wraps, which just came in. for bluffs, i think he can have missed spades, or maybe a Q that picked up hearts / straight draw on turn. i think even a hand like Q956 could turn into a bluff here if he decides (correctly) that i would almost never play a hand containing 52 this way, and he blocks some combos. so, he has plenty of possible bluffs and very few value hands - the question is whether he is following through on the river enough to force a call imo

I am calling this river 100% of the time based on your analysis. Based on your description of V1 it is hard to put him on a hand containing 5-2 with calling an $80 PFR and then calling a $145 flop bet if he is on a draw, even a combo draw since there is no nut flush draw possible, and if he puts you on AA most of the time here that blocks a 2-5 str8 draw. So what combos could he have in 4 card PLO involving 5-2? You have the nut flush draw on the flop, so you are telling me he either called the $80 PFR with a hand like 2-5-6-7, 5-4-4-2, 5-3-3-2, Q-Q-5-2 or he flopped a non nut flush draw that contains a 5 and 2? That seems unlikely to me.

I think you need to rethink this line of thinking as well:

Why would you be potting any heart when you also describe V1 as:

He potted the turn when the heart came and you just check called the turn, so it sounds like it would be hard to move him off of a heart flush on the river imo. If you are potting any heart, then you are narrowing his range down to more sets and 2 pairs, which again leads to calling the river.

BTW - I like the flop bet on this board as I would only be checking here if I intended to c/r. I do not like checking and letting weak draws or hands with a Q see the turn for free.

thanks everyone for the comments. results:

As played, never folding this.

Button is getting significantly better pot odds than normal preflop because he already has the $25 straddle in play. So his range should be wider than "standard" even in theory, and have more 52xx combos.

With the bad player calling in between, he can call much wider than even that. You (Hero) are not the reason he played this hand.

It's actually the opposite. Of course, he 'can' have more 52 combos because a lot of live players think they should widen their range multiway, when they should be playing tighter.

In the games that I play there are different types of players.

We end up super deep so implied odds increase. I know a few people that play any 4 because we are so deep.

I typically don't like bloating a pot multiway because spots get awkward.

I would check the flop and see what villains do.

As played I would probably call the turn. Bluff hearts, value bet spades and possibly x/call board pairs that aren't a queen. Fold on the ace against the jam.

It might be I mostly play 5 card so when they are ripping it its normally not a bluff

Somehow missed this thread.

Anyway, I think CardiffGiant is correct here:

His range for potting turn is very Q9,99 heavy and if you check river he is going to check it back. If you lead river you can get some value.

I also think people way underbluff these spots. Think about what your range looks like and whether someone is going to try and bluff you off of it. You have plenty of nut flush draws so you at minimum have an A let alone 2p+

As played though, you have checked and he bet full pot. It's one of those weird spots where the nuts is so unlikely (his range only has it about 5% of the time). He doesn't have to bluff much at all for his frequencies to be imbalanced. I will fold river if I make the assumption that he literally bluffs 0% of the time. Its hard to think of bluffs but maybe a JT9:ss that missed or a QJT. If I can give the guy credit for any bluffs at all then I'm calling.