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3betting or calling 3betting or calling

11-10-2016 , 07:12 PM
[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25, $0.05 ante Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $23.67 (94.7 bb)
BB: $44.79 (179.2 bb)
UTG: $25 (100 bb)
MP: $20.02 (80.1 bb)
CO: $119.62 (478.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 7 7 9 8
UTG folds, MP raises to $1.15, CO folds, Hero ?

MP 65 / 39 / 29% agg / 57% OR MP

Blinds reggys

I have read in several books that 3betting middle and low pairs is not a good idea. Maybe this suggestion is very simplistic? I find some spots like this where I feel that 3betting would be better because:

Our hand is non nutty, so playing a low spr hu pot ip would be nicer and better than induce a multiway with high spr pot by calling where we will hit a lot of non nut fds and flushes, and non top sets and even low straights

Despite the pair, our hand is double suited and well connected (and in the middle of the deck), then it must have a decent smooth equity distribution

We have the chance of ending the pot actually HU (because of tight blinds)

We isolate the recreational

Is my reasoning good?
3betting or calling Quote
11-10-2016 , 08:18 PM
I 3b

"I love the rundown hands with a pair" - Galfond in his latest RIO video

That is pretty much my only justification
3betting or calling Quote
11-10-2016 , 10:03 PM
Your thinking is good. All that it misses is what you're going to do to a 4-bet and what our equity looks like vs a 4b range. This is especially important since he only has 80bbs.
3betting or calling Quote
11-11-2016 , 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated
Your thinking is good. All that it misses is what you're going to do to a 4-bet and what our equity looks like vs a 4b range. This is especially important since he only has 80bbs.
Made some simulations vs 2%, 3%, 4% and 5% 4bet, we have at worst 41% and better as his range gets wider . If we pot it and villain 4bets, we need 39% to stack off (for the entire stacks by shoving) and 17% for the next street if we peel and doge some boards.

Ev of shoving is 4bb~
Ev of peeling and dodge is 8bb~

Maybe just shoving on this scenario would avoid expensives mistakes by trying to dodge wrong.

But I think to avoid this, we should 3bet smaller if so, then we could peel more comfortably.

P.D: Also, I think that being the pair + rundown smaller doesn't should be that negative if so vs 4bet ranges, actually our straight draws should be less blocked than higher pairs + rundown (KKQT for example)

Last edited by Mindead; 11-11-2016 at 12:12 AM.
3betting or calling Quote
11-12-2016 , 02:02 AM
One nice thing about reraising is you can easily get the blinds to fold hands that are actually quite competitive against you.
3betting or calling Quote
11-12-2016 , 09:53 AM
3-bet vs looser opening range like 20%+, not tight UTG ranges, 3-bet to isolate weaker players, 3-bet to get the blinds to fold, sigh and call 4-bet to stack off against presumably AA sometimes AKK or KKds.
3betting or calling Quote
11-12-2016 , 01:03 PM
hey,
can you explain this:
Quote:
and 17% for the next street if we peel and doge some boards
how do you get that number ?
3betting or calling Quote
11-21-2016 , 09:02 AM
I'd call, bloating the pot helps our opponents (including blinds) more than us with stack sizes, our hand also plays amazing multiway so we never mind if more players come in
3betting or calling Quote
11-21-2016 , 06:45 PM
I'd like to hear why this hand plays well multiway
3betting or calling Quote
11-21-2016 , 08:20 PM
There are tons of marginal double suited hands and this is one of them. Whether you 3bet or not has almost nothing to do with the nuttiness of the hand and is almost entirely dependent on the opponent and the timing of the situation.
3betting or calling Quote
11-22-2016 , 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe
I'd like to hear why this hand plays well multiway
Me too
3betting or calling Quote
11-22-2016 , 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe
I'd like to hear why this hand plays well multiway

there are many reasons

First, it is easier to approximate our strength on most flops multiway, HU we will often struggle to know how valuable our 77 is, especially on paired boards

77 is the lowest of playable pairs where we can flop top set without a straight being present, many times when we hit we will also get more action because opponents will put us on wraps/combo draws and overstimate their equity

we have the potential for 2 straight flushes, it can hugely improve our equity in many spots

Finally we have good potential for flopped straights and straight draws, which we will frequently get a good price to play
3betting or calling Quote
11-22-2016 , 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
there are many reasons

First, it is easier to approximate our strength on most flops multiway, HU we will often struggle to know how valuable our 77 is, especially on paired boards

77 is the lowest of playable pairs where we can flop top set without a straight being present, many times when we hit we will also get more action because opponents will put us on wraps/combo draws and overstimate their equity

we have the potential for 2 straight flushes, it can hugely improve our equity in many spots

Finally we have good potential for flopped straights and straight draws, which we will frequently get a good price to play
I am sure that calling is an ev+ option, both on this situation and with 100bb deep, we can be picky about the flops anyway, and being the case that villain stack is shallow is a point for it.

But on this same spot with 100bb, I doubt calling > 3betting. Being picky about the spot means we are going to fold a lot of our equity postflop, fear of domination with Flushes, FDs, even sets, etc.

Seems like a perfect hand to isolate for me, and our smooth equity postflop will make it very easy to play, and we will realize it comfortably
3betting or calling Quote
11-22-2016 , 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
there are many reasons

First, it is easier to approximate our strength on most flops multiway, HU we will often struggle to know how valuable our 77 is, especially on paired boards

77 is the lowest of playable pairs where we can flop top set without a straight being present, many times when we hit we will also get more action because opponents will put us on wraps/combo draws and overstimate their equity

we have the potential for 2 straight flushes, it can hugely improve our equity in many spots

Finally we have good potential for flopped straights and straight draws, which we will frequently get a good price to play
Our draws are way more often going to be dominated multiway - aswell as our sets and straights. That said, both calling and 3-betting are reasonable options.
3betting or calling Quote
11-22-2016 , 06:56 PM
I like 3betting this hand myself, I just don't think the stacks make it particularly appealing

Adding to the multiway vs call argument

We are looking at 41%ish equity vs a top 10% HU, we will drop down to about 32% if a 3rd player comes in with a reasonable range (25% or better)

That is easily worth it for a bigger pot in good position for a hand with great playability
3betting or calling Quote
11-24-2016 , 02:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe
Our draws are way more often going to be dominated multiway - aswell as our sets and straights. That said, both calling and 3-betting are reasonable options.
Pretty much this. If blinds are loose just call if their stats are normal and you have good indication that that they will fold then knock yourself out and 3bet. Your hand has polarized equity distribution so when you hit you hit big or overcards come on the flop and you basically done. (unless of course villain has high flop c-bet fold so you can give it a shot....just thinking)

By calling you basically invite the Blinds and if you hit a magical flop you can get paid good but if you miss you are done with the hand not even thinking about floating a bet or try to steal on flop cuz 4ways.....it's just bad idea.

(still learning the game so all of the above might be just bollocks )
3betting or calling Quote
11-24-2016 , 06:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by $ilentboy
Pretty much this. If blinds are loose just call if their stats are normal and you have good indication that that they will fold then knock yourself out and 3bet. Your hand has polarized equity distribution so when you hit you hit big or overcards come on the flop and you basically done. (unless of course villain has high flop c-bet fold so you can give it a shot....just thinking)

By calling you basically invite the Blinds and if you hit a magical flop you can get paid good but if you miss you are done with the hand not even thinking about floating a bet or try to steal on flop cuz 4ways.....it's just bad idea.

(still learning the game so all of the above might be just bollocks )
It's not polarized, it's smooth, just frequently dominated, specially as more players enter the pot
3betting or calling Quote
11-24-2016 , 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindead
It's not polarized, it's smooth, just frequently dominated, specially as more players enter the pot
I see, yeah as a stand alone it's smooth since it hits high % of flop but thought that if flop hits us like top set or oesd and you bet or reraise vilain your range becomes polarized right??

p.s. Sorry but still learning...
3betting or calling Quote

      
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