Setting is a fairly loose home game where no one folds preflop to just about any amount. People are there to gamble. I have Ks Qs Qc As in the BB. PLO table captain raises to $15 on the button. This player is one of the better players at our game and his raise could indicate any size rundown, big pair hands, etc. About 7 players call including myself. I thought about re potting him but didn't want to bloat the pot with this crew and have to play OOP. Is just calling a good play against a non folding crowd or is this a raise in any position with my hand? I suspect that at least 3 players would have called my re raise.

Ok on to the flop which is a monster for me. Js - 10d - 8s (I flop an OESD and Nut FD). I lead for pot. I have about $200 behind after making the flop bet. 2 players call.

Questions:

Do people like my flop lead there?
What is my play if the turn is a brick?

The 2 players that called my flop bet have me slightly covered.

Discuss.

Thanks

This flop is rarely getting checked thru in a big field. I would c/shove and hope to trap everyone in the pot so they are forced to pay you off when u make your hand. By leading into the field you force yourself to bet it all or call it off ott due to the great price u will get.
Btw- you flopped the nut wrap + NFD. Not OESD -- big difference.

Chili,
Thanks for pointing out that I had the nut wrap. I need to get better at instantly recognizing all my PLO outs as I proceed. And correct, with this crowd, someone is at least stabbing with an inferior draw, 2 pair or even a set. And I am never folding before seeing the turn, so I like a check - ship now that I think about it.

3b pre at pretty much any stack size

flop depends on the table. Leading or going CRAI are both OK; CRAI probably doesn't have much FE so I prefer leading

yrmom,
3 bet preflop vs. a loose table where I can expect 3 people to call still ok?

I played a hand earlier where I 3 bet pot to $70 and got two callers. I had As Ah Jh 8s. Flop came out 3d-5d-7c and I pretty much check folded and the other two showed down big time crap to win the hand. The winning hand was Q-10-7-3 (he flopped 2 pair).
I guess it's going to happen and you still raise with your big hands and hope for the best in a loose setting?

I advocated crai cuz we want action. We are ahead. If they fold, its ok, but id rather have everyone call, which gives us a huge overlay. By checking first, we allow our opponents to get trapped in the pot with crap made hands / inferior draws.

truth is, you cant do too much wrong with your hand and that flop
leading allows us to get a lot of calls when we have the most equity in this hand.
crai maybe gives us some fold equity. i dont want to have fold equity though overall against the field...
you need to find the line which gets the most money in on this flop, and both have merits.
crai ends the hand on the flop and we doesnt have to play brick turns, lead flop, shove turn on bricks maybe gets some folds from sets, which would be good on the turn.

whatever, nice hand unless you folded hehe

just try to balance your lines imo, e.g. meaning always leading with a the big draw and always c/raising with the nuts.

3bet pre.

i prefer a lead, i would hate to see this flop gets checked trough and see the 2 of hearts hitting, or, maybe even worse, one of our outs hits and kills our action.

tell us stack size it matters. assuming 100bb pot it pre and on this flop you can bet/get it in. i'd at least lead small OTF. don't like checking...if board pairs you're going to feel pretty small. if someone has FD or inferior str8 draw they're going to call you right, but probably not bet it themselves.

Don't reraise pre and with so many callers leading works fine. shove any turn.

why no 3bet pre?
would you really shove oop when you get 3 caller OTF and the J paired?

-3 bet PF, I don't like. OOP in a gamble heavy home game, small raise would get in at least 10 percent of stack (if you have roughly 320ish up front when the hand is dealt up, according to the details), and really, this hand needs to make see a 10 j flop or a q to crush, otherwise you will release on many flops when there is 150ish out there to be bet. I like seeing the flop cheap.

-hand is "virtually" unfoldable, agreed. could play it many ways, PSB/CRAI says I'm here to gamble, good for action, if nothing else, helps polarize play. but what I really like, nobody has mentioned. leading for 30-40 (pot is 105 with 7 callersX15 bucks). so many good things: inflate for PSB on the turn if we hit, to squeeze out 2pair/set on Fl/St turns, also great to freeroll against chop straights that DEF make it there for a 1/3rd pot bet otf.

but best, we can really troll for 9 Q. obv 9-7 will call this spot in a sloppy game, one time. Q9 will sound the alarm otf and you have to gamble with it anyways, but at least you maybe trapped dead money for value? anyways, on the turn we can squeeze out every hand other a set that wants to stack you in spite, or stubborn 97, or slowplayed nut. we don't have as many outs if we miss, with one card to run, but what we lose in outs, we gain in info, if flop play is passive. now we have real FE on the turn if we deem that nobody has the nuts. again, if you stack off heavy on the turn, it will only further a dicey table image, which is okay in these crapshoot private games.

PS. first post, yay! had this account for 2 years, haha.

-3 bet PF, I don't like. OOP in a gamble heavy home game, small raise would get in at least 10 percent of stack (if you have roughly 320ish up front when the hand is dealt up, according to the details), and really, this hand needs to make see a 10 j flop or a q to crush, otherwise you will release on many flops when there is 150ish out there to be bet. I like seeing the flop cheap.

-hand is "virtually" unfoldable, agreed. could play it many ways, PSB/CRAI says I'm here to gamble, good for action, if nothing else, helps polarize play. but what I really like, nobody has mentioned. leading for 30-40 (pot is 105 with 7 callersX15 bucks). so many good things: inflate for PSB on the turn if we hit, to squeeze out 2pair/set on Fl/St turns, also great to freeroll against chop straights that DEF make it there for a 1/3rd pot bet otf.

but best, we can really troll for 9 Q. obv 9-7 will call this spot in a sloppy game, one time. Q9 will sound the alarm otf and you have to gamble with it anyways, but at least you maybe trapped dead money for value? anyways, on the turn we can squeeze out every hand other a set that wants to stack you in spite, or stubborn 97, or slowplayed nut. we don't have as many outs if we miss, with one card to run, but what we lose in outs, we gain in info, if flop play is passive. now we have real FE on the turn if we deem that nobody has the nuts. again, if you stack off heavy on the turn, it will only further a dicey table image, which is okay in these crapshoot private games.

PS. first post, yay! had this account for 2 years, haha.

oh ya, after 1/3rd psb otf, you might get a free card on the turn also from every hand other than Q-9, or perhaps late position late position/drunken 9-7. don't have to mando-shove into a field of weak calling types. we love free cards with this hand after placing a bet that likely gets 2-4 callers if not raised back on flop .

btw, there was no end to the hand, did your psb take it down fast?

3bet pre gets in almost 20% of the stack. it thins the field, yes, it does, even in such games. they all limp in prepared to call one raise, but not everyone autocoldcall a 3bet.
if they do, what the hell, you still have great equity, need to flop good though
heads up there are many comfortable flops to stack off.

your thinking about the small lead is not bad, but it will lose you money in the long run.

remember, we have a huge hand, and want to get as much money in the middle as possible on the flop on the long run. a draw can be the favourite over a made hand in PLO, as it is in this case, and we always want to get as much money in the middle as possible as a mathematical favourite, whether we have the best hand at the moment or not.

spades will kill your action imo, we have the 3 highest spades and i dont expect someone to stack off with the 9 high flush multiway. also, whatever straight we make, we have big QQ blockers, which make it unlikely for someone else to make a str8.

i dont say it is necessarily bad to bet small, and if we get to fold sets or 97 on blank turns, great result, but i just think its not the optimal play.

but as i said before, our hand is so huge, that we cant really make a mistake unless we fold or c/call and lead into a J turn drawing dead or whatever stupidity is possible...

totally right sauhand, about betting big on the flop, forgot about takedown potential with qq blockers, as well as the spades, almost nothing will go along with this bet.

I am just used to these private games being egotistical shootouts, 2-5 is not really big enough for a gambler to be concerned. 200 dollar min buy, one pair with oesd, get er in there-type games. so the chiseler in me likes to not have to fully stack off with a draw if there is an alternate route, we have a big hand, but not a made hand (dinosaur play?). and the donk bet of 30ish helps add slight money if you have to race your whole stack against Q-9. you get away from a pair up on the turn, and you can just take the money without river on a hit, if a drawback is not stacking someone, it's okay. must waiting for better spots in these 10 handed plo games, I think the aggression has less value as more seats are added, because you just risk having set and straight call you and race, many cards are dealt out pf. I am choking on my own nittiness right now, haha.

like crai better than full pot otf. could pot a blank turn for takedown if it's checked again, because in the live games, late night, with a few drinks, 97 cannot check late position on that flop. so we really rep strong on the turn, despite losing a card to run our draw. I argue my point more just because mrpotto said "the type of game where no one folds for just about anything pf". I played in a 2-5 game last week where 8 of the 9 of us did a 300 dollar blind hand, 2400 dollar blind pot at the 2-5 level. yes, I was the only person who didn't partake, and no, I will not invite anybody to my game :P . in this type of game, also don't like 3 bet pf because 60-75 dollars REALLY doesn't matter in (sloppy) live games as soon as they get 150+ in blinds. for similar reason, do not like storming in my money when crap and fold and hands that beat us call, because the range of hands that catch us runs down to 5th nut in super gambley games.

note: 150+ as in blinds-deep, not dollars, haha. after about 1000 bucks those 2-5 plo games morph into baccarat tables sometimes, lol.

Hey all thanks. I hit the nut flush on the turn and shoved it in and got called by the preflop raiser who had top set (JJ) and can't let it go (perhaps my lead for pot on the flop confused him into thinking I had a lower set). The board doesn't pair and I take down a nice pot.

I'm pretty sure the same result occurs if I checked because top set easily bets something if it got to him and I raise for sure.

haha, yeah, i agree, once i played in a 5/5/10 game, UTG uberdonk limped in for 10, all hell broke loose pre, and he ended up cold calling 1260 euro allin with A553 one suit, and rivered a full house

haha, in a 1-2-5 pot game, saw a BB go from limping along for 60 bucks to flat-calling an additional 1400 in change. takes it down with 2D-8D-Kx-4x. the other hand are aajj and qqkk, he mumbled some talk pf, about how they probably both have huge cards, so his 2 pair outs were live (wasted drunk). the 2 big hands are pretty much all-in at this points. drunk calls, 3 ppl to the flop; 2-3-8. holds up for about 5k, gruesome. calgary stampede, wahoo. fyi, he dropped his racks on the way to the door, fun to watch. 5 k was mostly in 5's.

I love the chk pot here with his hand

3b pre. c/jam flop.

prefect played so far imo,

3bet pre would be better if stacksize is 200+ bb deep in a loose homegame.. I like that u lead with pot bet becuz if some1 repot u can get it in happy, if 2 ppl call u can play the turn as perfect as u can. Like if it comes a paired board you can slow down action. wp.

I would 3b pre, we like most A/K/Q high flops and our opponents will presumably be putting $ in pre with a ton of dominated hands. Having just one pair queens will be an easy hand to fold on bad flops as well.

I dislike this line of thinking intensely. It might sometimes be a close decision - in this spot i dont think it is - but there will always be a 'better' play, and it definitely is a mistake not to make that play.

I would lead; i think a wider range calls than bets, and not much folds to our bet that would bet themselves.

You want to maximize FE when you have 45% against one villain with nuts and other one with top set?