Round by round and stacks are deep. I have about $2200 in front of me and have been taking bad beats like crazy all session.

I get AsAd5s6d on the button and pot it to $80 and get 4 callers. Now I dont know where I am at with this many callers and the fact that I havent potted preflop all night. I am also not sure that anyone knows that I havent potted pre besides 1 player maybe.

Flop Qs7s6h and BB bets out $225 and it folds to me and I pot. We get the SB to shove $1400 and the BB shoves over the top. I have to call this off everytime right?


PS: I dont play in this big of a game usually (PLO) and never played PLO with this lineup becuse this never runs.

Yes, of course, but not that happy about it. Raising the flop is pretty bad unless you know BBs leading range is very drawheavy (leads more draws, and tends to cr sets a lot of the time). Readless I would just call, you have position.

yes

raising the flop is pretty bad. But 3way our hand please pretty well. I think we have between 32-45% in this spot

I'd be pretty stoked, actually...

Why? You are most likely against a set and big combo draw where some of the flush outs are gone already. Probably 25-28% equity maybe even less.

Flop call would have been way better this deep, might even be able to get away from the hand against 2 shoves (probably close). As played you have to call but certainly not happy about it as you are most likely crushed.

I agree that flatting is preferable, the first time. But how can we possibly be crushed in this situation? Therefore, I'm stoked because we're getting it in three ways with a healthy chunk of guaranteed equity from a battery of certainly nutted outs. I seriously do not expect to often see a weaker flush draw jamming here terribly frequently, unless they have a wrap + flush draw exactly, against which we block combinations, with the As and 5s, and against which we must discount at least some of the compositions of draws wherein the flush draw is fairly low, especially at this stack depth and facing this action.

I wouldn't be too surprised to run into two sets here. Hands like QQMM or 7789 are hardly out of the question, hands like 6789ds, 789Tds, 89TJds, etc, are not without merit in a 3-betting range BvBU, and, without reads, it seems more reasonable to suppose that a cold 3-bet shove with second set and a SD or FD is more likely than a cold 3-bet shove with a strong straight draw and flush draw that's only worth the blockers. Readless, I don't know how we can assume that BB would b/4b .55p with a non-nut draw at this stack depth.

Finally (and assuming that BB covers) we now have to call 1125 for a pot of around 5000. With 25-28% equity, how can we be unhappy? This is the best of all possible results of raising the flop.

god plo is so hard

Obviously you have to call but are unhappy in the sense that the hand was played bad and you end up losing more overall because of it. Against QQ** and 8s9s** you have 28.5 %. If we assume BB covers we end up with a pot of 400+1400+2120+2120=6040

So as played we end with (.285*6040)-2200(to start) = -479 loss

If we flat flop then fold we end up with -80-225= -305 loss

The only real way to be happy would be to see set over set, though I can admit that perhaps I am discounting that possibility too much.

your calculations are wayyyyy too simplistic

where does flatting flop, turning a flush, and losing action vs. a hand that would have got it in with us on the flop factor in?

It doesn't, nor does it need to. What hand do you suppose this would be given the stack sizes? In other cases I would agree with you but not the way this hand played out.

That's great, it's $1045 more and the total pot will be around $6k. It's not a marginal call at all.

Of course the author of the thread should've asked about decisions that took place before he had half his stack in the middle with a nut draw, but at least now he knows "I have to call this off everytime right?" is a yes.

BB has Q7xx and SB has T985 no spades. BB bets $225, we call, SB calls. Turn is the 2s, BB checks and we bet big, SB folds, BB either calls or folds. All of a sudden we have lost money vs. two hands that would have likely gotten it in on the flop.

You also ignore the fact that flatting the flop gives the SB better odds to call with hands that do well vs. us that would fold to a raise.

i would flat otf, because it's a live game and everybody is chasing weaker fds.
But if we flat and sb raises and bb gets it in im also calling happily

No one ever said it was, please read what I actually wrote.

Agreed, this was already established in the first couple replies.

A naked Q7xx and T985 no spades getting in on flop at these stack sizes is just bad imo.

Like what? Bottom 2 perhaps. You can't put Q7xx and T985 in this group since you feel they will get it in. Plus you seem to be ignoring the fact about hands you want to stay in. A smaller flush draw will likely call flop and 1 more bet. You are simplifying things as well.

The BB had Q77x and the SB had 4s5sxx

It's live poker.

98xx? 85xx? any ****ty old straight draw that won't call a raise but will call closing the action multiway getting good odds?

seems i`m a little late.
fyi

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: q76

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
asad5s6d	36.20%	216,557	1,330
qq:20%,77:35%,jt98-9876$ss,jt98-9876$ds,t98:35%,985:40%	31.84%	181,414	19,209
qq:20%,77:35%,jt98-9876$ss,jt98-9876$ds,t98:35%,985:40%	31.96%	182,161	19,236

True. Given what SB had and how he played the hand I think I gave the players a little too much credit.

I'm happy to have the s**tty straight draws call since they are drawing so thin, plus we have position. Would actually prefer they call rather than fold to a raise, can get more value out of the hand.

Overall I just think we run into sets way too often here to make raising a better play than calling. Guess we just disagree on that one.

Agree with Roy...its live poker. Our hand is more valuable live in this spot than online vs competent opponents. Sooo many villains fold buttons don't work live...call and hope, call and hope.

So are you guys saying that the best play is to raise the flop here? I just don't see how we are ahead of random villain's donking range from the BB here, and we have no way of knowing that SB wants to come along

I disagree with jaops sim completely. I don't think BB is donking draws like that, and why doesn't his range include Q7 and 66?? I think for live players all 77 and 66 can be included in their range, I have seen people call 100 bb pre with 7725 in live games

But yeah I guess I agree that we are fairly happy to get it in 3way here, but I think we are close to flipping

cards in BB´s range are to define by two conditions:
-flat pre oop
-donk flop 5handed

you`re right,in BB`s donking range are some 66xx (A66xds,A667ss,A665,ss,6675ss,etc.)
Q7 i see only donking with a redraw (Q987ds,Q876ds,Q7XXcc,etc.)

the count of those handcombinations is rather low,so i figure our equity will not go down by much.
but anyway,i should have included them.

imo BB donks combodraws...i would.

what about you alter that sim to get results more precise?
just a proposal!

Cmon guys...you've never seen Q7 and 67 wanting to protect their hand against a likely overpair...especially with all the draws out there? I'm sure this is a spot where we run into the tops of villains ranges and that's why we have this thread instead of no thread but man...anybody who doesn't include all 2pr hands as possibly being in 1 or both villains' ranges is overestimating live plo donkings. imhhho.

Geez...Top2 NOT wanting to protect their hand here? I'm cringing here just thinking about it.

straightforward flat the first time multiway with position