This is probably very basic, but PLO is my worst game (this was played as part of the 8game rotation on stars). I didnt have PTO on, so I dont have any stats on villain. Hes been raising the button over half the time, but hasnt really gotten into any big PLO confrontations. My impression is that hes a bit LAGGY preflop but doesnt get out of line much postflop.

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 3 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $554.85
SB: $338.30
Hero (BB): $512.90

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with A J Q K
BTN raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero raises to $22, BTN calls $15

Flop: ($45.00) Q J 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $44, BTN raises to $176,

I guess my hand is an obvious 3bet preflop, right? Potting the flop seems pretty obvious too. And since its such a wet board, do I have to go with this hand? Im not used to playing this deep. If I do have to go with this hand, how deep would we have to be before I would consider not showing this down, or is that player dependant?

Given that I do have get it in with this hand, is it better to 3bet all in on the flop, or to flat his raise, and donk-shove any non-spade turn? Or is there another line i should be considering?

First thing I would do is vomit.

IMO, your hand is not as strong as I think you are thinking. This board has a lot of draws possible and a lot of the time it will be a flush or straight that takes down this pot. Any spade, 9, 8, K, and probably an A and you are not happy.

Basically not having a redraw aside from the gutter hurts your hand significantly. Getting 250bb in on this flop is suicide. You will never have the best of it.

Since I want to avoid bet/folding with top 2, and losing my significant equity in the pot, I think I like either check/call the flop and check/raise a safe turn; or bet about 50-60% pot and a call a raise, and then again c/r safe turns.

I think you have to realize that this flop connects with a lot of hands, especially those that call a 3bet preflop but don't 4 bet. Middle rundowns and set-mining pocket pairs, and the flush draw that you don't have ... it's really an awful awful flop compounded by the fact that you actually hit it too.

Yeah the more I think about it, though it looks awkward and weak I am okay with check/calling OOP. The hand does have a lot of value, wants to get closer to showdown, but really does NOT want to play a big pot. I don't think the "weakness" is not risking that much anyway (is a hand like 8876 or 4567 going to 2 barrel a QJ board??)

Very interesting hand.

1) You say, any spade A, K, 9, 8 and i am not happy. Arent I compounding this then by check/calling the flop? I mean, those cards are going to come a lot of the time (19/45) so wouldnt it be better for me to get it in on the flop, that way unless my opponent is on a wrap with a flush draw i dont have to worry about all of those cards?

2) If I check and he checks through, what is my plan for the turn? Am i potting any safe card? Am i potting any card? Am i potting a non-spade? What if i boat up, am i checking then?

3) What if I c/c the flop and he checks through a safe turn card, isnt that a risk?

4) Ive gotta say that your advice seems monumentally weak to me. Of course, I dont play a lot of PLO, but the idea that Id check the flop with top two after 3betting just because its kind of wet BEFORE MY OPPONENT HAS SHOWN ANY STENGTH is mind boggling to me. You say that his 3bet call range is a lot of rundowns and set mining pairs. Well, most of those hands missed this flop didnt they? I mean, something like TT33 has me crushed, but most of his other setmining hands shouldnt hit this given that I have top two, and a rundown like T987 has a wrap, but even then its a bottom wrap and should be folding to a 3bet on the flop.

Ill be interested to see what other people say about c/c the flop. Honestly it had never even occured to me.

Depends a lot on if he's capable of raising with draws here, as many players are not when stacks get deeper. Against unknowns, I lean towards a fold. Against a player with postflop aggression, I like a call, and shove any non-spade turn.

And I really dislike c/c fwiw. You're losing a ton of value, and lets a lot of weak hands draw for free.

Sometimes the right play will put you in difficult spots, that doesn't mean that the play is wrong.

This is an easy fold imo. Even QJxx with spades has us crushed. Were basically hoping to be even money when we get it in here and a significant amount of the time were going to be drawing very very slim.

It is better to get it in on the flop with those cards if you're willing to felt the hand. I'm not; any villain who will put in 250bb at best slightly behind you, and at worst he's got you crushed.

If those 19/45 cards do hit, then yes in a way you are compounding the problem because now you have another tough decision. However, I think with a really dangerous board like that it's okay to just check/fold and protect your stack. In other words, the decision may be harder to make on the turn, but it's better than having 250bb in the middle on a Q J 3 8 board.

2. I think 2/3 pot will accomplish the same thing. I also would bet scare cards. If I filled up then I am more inclined to bet because I'd have no reason to think villain would.

3. I don't mind keeping the pot small. He's got position, you can either play a big pot out of position with a marginal hand or give free cards. I favor the latter. I wouldn't lead the turn because you can't represent anything. You can't rep a missed checkraise and you can't have a super strong hand. It looks like a protection bet.

Well it seemed weak to me too at first :-) , but tell me how are you going to take advantage of it if you held a hand that you'd fold on the flop, like 5678 without spades? You'd have to know that I am pulling this trick and you have to fire two barrels into a wet board with complete air.

There 2 things that are different in PLO related to this hand:
- top two is a marginal hand when the board is wet. Rather than betting to protect or to charge draws, it's likely that draws are actually favorites against made hands. This is also the kind of hand that gets a large boost in equity if it survives one street. When you're playing deep and have no redraw that's important (with 100bb I would just ship it on the flop)

-. because the preflop equities of hands run close together, but get better defined after the flop, it's possible in PLO to 3 bet preflop then give up easily and even check/fold. I don't think it's weak so much as reality, that lots of flops are terrible.

I understand that top two isnt the monster in PLO that it is in NLH. I also understand that you will often c/f a flop after 3betting preflop. I even (sort of) understand that it may not be the best idea to stack off with top two 250bb deep on the flop.

Im sort of wondering though why I cant b/c the flop and then shove a safe turn. Is it because Im getting too much of my stack in on the flop for your liking? If thats the case I could probably manipulate that SPR by betting something like $35 on the flop, then he can repot it to $150 - a call from me leaves the pot at $345 with $340 behind, allowing me to pot all in on a safe turn.

I guess I like call and donk shove on non-spade turns as well, but it feels really dirty to c/f to a turn spade after putting $200 in. We might get outplayed some of the time since we're OOP and if the guy is aggressive at all, he'll be bluffing here enough that it's just an ugly situation no matter how you slice it.

If it were 100bb I would just 3 bet then and there, expecting that you're flipping against a draw. There's also the dynamic that he could be semibluff raising you, thinking you have AA and can't take the heat but since this is part of a multigame rotation, we can't be too sure how much villain knows about PLO or whether or not he'll make this assumption. A pair + straight draw or pair + fd has good equity against you, but that equity goes down on a safe turn... I guess this really is a vomit inducing spot.

Would love to hear from some of the more high stakes regs on this spot but they don't visit this side of PLO-land often

crushed?
AhKdQsJh 45.73%
QcJc9s8s 54.27%


I guess a lot of this comes down to what sort of range people think hes raising me with on the flop. My assumption was that he was doing it with:
NFD + gutshot (AsTsxx)
NFD + TPTK
FD + OESD
4 rank wrap
2pair + gutshot
2 pair + FD
sets

I guess before we go further it would help if people clarified what sort of range they think hes raising with. Some posters seem to be suggesting that its only:
sets
FD+wraps
-and i know thats not right.

AhJhQsKd 34.88%
QcJcAsTs 65.12%

AhJhQsKd 34.45%
QcJc9sTs 65.55%

AhJhQsKd 41.83%
KcQcJdTd 58.17%

AhJhQsKd 42.99%
AsQhTdKs 57.01%

AhJhQsKd 44.39%
KhTd9s8s 55.61%

AhJhQsKd 34.88%
AsQhJcTs 65.12%

AhJhQsKd 38.90%
AsKsTd9d 61.10%

AhJhQsKd 48.29%
AsTs9d8d 51.71%



need I continue? I think it's safe to say you're rarely getting it in here with any equity advantage. and some of the time you're going to be close to drawing dead when he has a set+FD, 2pair+FD/etc.

I think you're making a pretty big mistake folding this to someone with a smidge of aggression.

You could well be freerolling him a lot of the time if he has a bare QJ. I don't really like flatting to get a safe turn card much because we are OOP and run the risk of getting bluffed off our hand on ghey turns like an offsuit 8.

Having said that I still feel very uncomfortable putting in so many bbs with your hand because often we are slightly behind to a big wrap + FD and sometimes (very rarely) drawing to 3 outs. But the pots massive ffs.

sounds like monsters under the bed syndrome to me. Seeing as this is PLO im sure you can come up with all sorts of hands that are bad for any non-nut hand on any sort of wet board. You said "QJ with spades" not QJ with overs and a gutshot, and a wrap, etc, etc.

You say im rarely getting it in here with an equity edge. Earlier I encouraged people to say what range they think villain will raise the flop with. If you think that villain is only raising me on the flop with the hands you listed above and sets, then it would follow that i should fold. But if you think hes only raising with that range, i thnk you might be even worse at this game than i am a (or perhaps just play smaller stakes with more passive opponents?)

PS
im over 33% against all of those hands you listed. That doesnt count as crushed in my book.

I don't fold this. I probably wait for the safe turn though...

I think you can play it this way as well. I think I mentioned b/c the flop and c/r safe turns, but if there's only 1 psb left then then I'm convinced for the turn shove. The main thing is the smaller flop bet.

It's not so much because of the pot/stack ratio after potting, rather more your hand strength compared to a raising range. Usually your equity is hovering close to a call but often it can be very low, and it's never great. I want to reduce the size of a marginal decision. I think this holds even if I were 500bb deep and it didn't set up a turn shove.

In any case if you are worried about an aggro villain taking the pot away due to a weak check, then a 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet on the flop accomplishes the same thing as a full pot bet.

Im not so much worried about him taking the pot away, Im more worried about letting him draw for free. The pot is already 22bb in size, and id hate to let him hit something, especially if it was something that i didnt see coming and would have to pay off (like if he turned a set of 7s or something)

I see your point. There are a fair number of hands like 9976 or so that will call the preflop 3 bet but have to bail on this flop when you bet. I think that they still have to bail on the turn but that's not true if they spike a set.

But I'd be more inclined to bet for protection if you could bet/fold the hand. As it is you could already be behind, but you have too much equity to just fold to a raise. I think this is going to occur more often than villain having a hand like 77 and turning a hidden set. Even though losing a stack to 77 is an expensive error it's rare.

+1 A* Excellent sound thought out advice explained perfectly. Marry me?

So what's our plan, bro?

I ship it in on the flop unless villain has been nitty. If he's LAGgy its possible he raises the bare NFD here and it's conceivable he might even have Q3 or J3 if he is that LAGgy.

I lost a pot similar to this yesterday for 250bbs, where i potted out and got chk raised all in, i had top2 and the nfd villain reships with AA and a gutshot, no flush draw.

I just couldnt let this hand go in todays games, where people just spazz out with top and bottom 2 or even bare AA.

Sometimes you just have to flip for it.

There is no way I fold here sans very strong reads.
c/c IS monumentally weak.
waiting for a safe turn achieves little.
Dont forget there is ~$140 dead money in there.
The option that sux the least is to ship it, and I'll go with it.

Lets pretend we had a decision on the flop before we bet. The easiest answer would be b/3b. So why the doubts now that we have actually been raised

trying to think of alternate lines here is fairly weak tight.

Second thing I would do is shove.

Then I go get a rag to clean up my keyboard and look at the hand in the replayer.

I think you're kind of stuck shipping it in here.

I think looking for other lines here is being a bit results oriented. We want to cbet big on this wet board with our decent made hand.

We don't like getting raised and aren't fist pump shoving but the pot is too big and there are too many semi-bluffing and drawing hands to do any thing else. We likely have the best and have a few outs of our own to the nuts.

We'd have to be SUPER deep not to shove, imo.

what did you do?

I b/3b the flop. He had A T 9 5 and was like 50.33% against me. I boated up on the turn. So clearly im not being results oriented cause i won (im not one of those people who only posts big cooler hands they played and then asks, "how can i avoid losing money here?"). The only reason Im discussing alternate lines - and really b/c b is the only one i take seriously - is that

1) I remember hearing advice from players i respect about sometimes waiting for a free card to ship the turn, rather than always shrugging and flipping the flop. And

2) Given my own bet sizing on the flop, I dont think theres really a lot of hands that he can raise with that arent going to call (and arent correct to call) my 3bet. It seems like I steal a bit of equity from him if I flat his raise and get away from the hand on a spade turn. Of course, he steals a little equity from me if the board pairs up and he folds on the turn.

Honestly youre right, my natural inclination as a non-PLO player is just to ship this flop, knowing that were in decent shape against his range. But i thought that this waiting for the turn thing was a big thing people did in PLO and i could improve my game by incorporating it.