I was going to say kantian as well (correct me if i'm wrong, but that means "if everyone doing it would result in disaster, then its immoral") then yeah, I meant to include that. And yeah, I don't think turning the other cheek in your example is correct.

The kantian part is one place where you differentiate yourself from limon. He makes an effort to cut in lines whenever possible, for example, which is obviously wrong from both moral compasses.

Why would you inject yourself in the middle of something unless you really do believe your morality is superior? I think this is what's going on in this thread under the guise of personal preference. Besides, I thought you threw money at conflict.

I think you've made a good case for why you should not engage in parenting/marriage. But when you say things about the negatives far outweighing the positives, it assumes your negatives are absolutes. Many people find that the utility of a leisurely life diminishes to the point that they want to assume the risks of marriage or having children. Or more philisophically safe, perhaps, would be to say they put down the selfish (and I don't particularly mean that in a negative way) life in pursuit of meaning. I'm not limiting "meaning" to family, but many people find it there. Maybe it's as simple as the distinction between pleasure and happiness. Happiness is harder and requires more, but is more rewarding. Celebrities seem to prove over and over the emptiness of "everything all the time". I'm reluctant to get involved in this thread because I'll fatigue or only reiterate what others are getting at and you have obviously put more thought into it than I have.

One anecdote. Several years ago, I took my mom to New Orleans as a Christmas gift. Neither of us had ever visited before. She got wind of a plantation tour that was about 1 1/2 hour bus trip each way. Looking at old houses did not interest me in the least, like I KNEW this would be a trip of pain. I thought our vacation days would be awesome lunches and shopping in the French Quarter and after she turned in, I would gamble/drink it up. Anyhoo, I was steaming inside a little bit as the youngest bus rider by at least 15 years. Upon arriving, however, it was pretty hard not to be impressed with the beauty of the plantations. The look on my mother's face was enough to remove any lingering resentment. The tour guide ended up being very personable; not some indifferent automaton or over-the-top cartoon I had envisioned. He had a passion for his work that made the story behind the Laura Plantation very interesting and moving. Also, I enjoyed the best Jambalaya and creme brulee you could ever put in your mouth.

Before going on the tour it was about a long bus ride, being around old people, looking at old houses, and a ton of walking in the sticky LA heat. Now, all of those elements were still present and you would be "right" to describe the tour in such terms, but it ended up being by far the best part of the trip. I discovered my own affinity for antiques and antebellum architecture, the history of that place was haunting and palpable, and the experience brought some joy to my mom that she still talks about to this day. It was a happy day. Not simply one filled with pleasure.

Now that was just one day to endure, whereas children/marriage is a lifetime. But the idea is that it's a lifetime of those types of discoveries to various degrees. I would have missed out on some happiness by being right about the tour and staying back to enjoy some pleasures. Just as you would be right to say the trip was inconvenient and not what I wanted, you would be right to say that children are bratty, whiny, selfish, demanding and life-changing. But the satisfaction, happiness, benefit, or whatever you wish to call it came from the experience itself, something I could not possibly have known.

If someone is making someone else feel bad and they can't defend themselves I'll defend them. For example, I was out with a group and a girl (Amy) was being very critical of the GF (who wasn't present) of one of the guys in the group. Amy couldn't understand why anyone would date someone who did not have a university education. The first time I let it slide but when she kept coming back to it I embarrassed her. I'm not sure where morality fits into this -- it is more of a don't throw stones if you live in a glass house situation.

Not all conflicts can be solved that way. Personal attracts have to be dealt with unfortunately.


Depends on what you mean by the negatives being absolute. They are absolute in the sense that having a child will limit your freedom. That is true for every one who has a child and doesn't employ live in nannies. What is relative about the negatives is the impact that loss of freedom has on someone's life.

I think you are greatly under-playing the lifetime aspect of having a child (I have no issues with marriage since it is easy to exit). Your anecdote turned out well but it could just as easily turned out to be the opposite. There are many things I went into thinking they would be great and they turned out to be awful. There are things I went into thinking they would be blah that turned out to be great. All this establishes is that our ability to predict how much we'll enjoy any given experience is imperfect. From my perspective that makes it insane to commit to anything that is long term which doesn't have an exit option.

Yeah, that's not normal.

Next time you want to give a respectful nod to the late, great Ray Charles and eat a "5 for $5.95" Roast Beef feast, remember the poor farmed animals that made the sacrifice for you.

No need to reply to this post since you are likely a vegan and member of PETA. (I'm a member of "Pita" myself...some lamb, tomatoes, tzatziki sauce. Mmmm...)

awesome poast crayzee. You're really good at reading threads.

Whenever people find out I'm on a diet, then yell at me because I can't afford to loose weight because I'm 6'0 115 pounds. Do people even understand what a diet is? Then I have to explain to them what the word means and they pretend like they believe me, it tilts me to no end. Yes, some people are actually trying to gain weight, everyone isn't obese. Pass the big mac please..

Had not read this topic before it was bumped, and actually rather amusing and somewhat interesting thread.

the idea of not understanding why people have kids seems so ******ed to me. i can understand someone not wanting to have kids, but "not getting it" is just ******ed. you wouldn't exist if someone didn't give birth to you. what more is there to get? do you think that little of your parents for giving you life - that you "dont get why someone would do that" ?? so weird..

i think the main reason i want to have kids some day is because i'm really glad to be alive, and thankful someone gave birth to me to experience my own existence. in a way i feel like i owe it to my currently nonexistent children to give them a chance at life and try to provide them a good one. i also like the idea of having the chance at spreading my awesomeness combined with someone elses awesomeness to create more awesomeness in the world. of course it could be a complete disaster and actually following through is terrifying. but uh having kids is pretty... natural.

i also expect that a lot of anti-marriage and anti-baby people will look in the mirror one day realize they're 50 years old and time went by a little faster than they realized. and spend the rest of their lives trying to find "the one" who just happens to be an under 30 babymaker and unattainable. and at best they will end up with hot nurse to push them around in a wheelchair.

but i realize marriage & having children isn't for everyone.

You are confusing being grateful for something with understanding the reasons and motivations for why someone would do it. It is very bad logic. If a stranger walked up and gave me a suitcase full of money I would be grateful for it (once the suspicion that it was something nefarious passed) but I nevertheless wouldn't understand the motivations or why they did it?

ok mr. logicmaster.

i'm not confusing anything with anything. i never thought being grateful for something is the reason why people have children. i did say an appreciation for my own existence is one of the reasons i have an understanding of why i would like to.
and that for someone to essentially say "i don't get why my parents gave me life, it just doesn't make sense. why would someone do such a thing? why did they get married, why didn't they just stay single forever and hump real dolls? why didn't my mom just have an abortion, was she stupid?? i can't believe anyone would be that stupid to do that to themselves and bring a child into the world. think of all the money they could have saved and all the freedom that was given up and how much better their lives would be if they never met and had me." seems like something is pretty ****ed up with the person that thinks that way. but that kind of person probably shouldn't be reproducing anyway so it all works out.

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i don't care whether or not someone wants to have children. it's obviously a huge commitment and not for everyone. just that it just seems weird to me to not understand why other people want to take it on. people obviously have children for many different reasons and motivations. but IT IS A NATURAL PART OF LIFE. and trying to make "logical arguments" explaining the "logical reasons" as "logical proof" why people shouldn't have babies (or get married - and raising a child would be a lot harder to do without the marriage part) until you successfully convince the world to stop reproducing sounds like disaster for humanity and just come across as ******ed to me, sorry.

i hope the suitcase has a bomb in it.

I have a feeling that society would have benefited from your parents having an anti-children philosophy.

of course you do ? duh.

Calm down, guys. Henry, throw gorie some cash to keep this on an even keel and let's move on.

i was going to suggest he put it in a suitcase and give it to me.

Giving away a suitcase full of money is exactly the same as choosing to birth a human. Good argument Henry.

Throw Gorie some cash, and Autocratic some for pointing out this faux pas. (of being wrong and yet not fiscally compensating people yet).

awesome bump! This is why OOT loves me.

lol, no.

This may come as a shock to you, but some people actually don't have any desire to permanently officially emotionally attach themselves to someone else just so they can be glad they're not "alone" and not have to feel bad when they get made fun of on the crappy sitcoms they watch with their codependent significant others.

But the main point of this thread is that people who have made a desicion not to have babies are generally smarter than those who do.

This argument has like 900 holes in it but I don't feel like pointing them all out.

This thread makes me wish Anacardo would post more

agreed! actually, **** it, let's make it 8 figures. why not, right?

is one of them that none of his genes make it to the next generation? effectively terminating his 'smarter' genes and thereby making us collectively dumber? which really makes him dumb when you think about it. hmmm, evolution works!!!

he'll end up having kids anyway. lol.

At no point did I imply they were the same. My point was simply that you can be happy something happened without understanding the motivations behind why someone did it. I could have picked countless examples of things people can be grateful for but which they can't explain.

Yes but is a stranger handing you a suitcase full of money on the street exactly as weird as you and some woman deciding to have kids?

Like 100% of people find the former weird, and maybe only 20% the latter (assuming you didn't buy her).

I just thought about it, and it doesn't. Maybe you'll think about it too before posting next time?

Not weird. Most people have children so it is actually the norm. So weird wouldn't be the correct term.

I would say both are difficult to explain. Without turning to emotional arguments having children can never be justified. This topic has been done to death and in none of the various times it has arisen has anyone ever managed to make a completely rational argument for having children. They can make plenty of emotional arguments for the decision which is fine and perfectly valid but emotional arguments are always going to be personal and outside the understanding of someone who doesn't share them.

I can make a rational argument, he forgot to pullout. (because you'd have to be drunk to want kids imo)