This is the first I've seen of this thread, and so I have not read through it yet. I'm sure there has been plenty of tarding up on both sides of the argument, but as a pit bull owner, I can tell you that there is no way that pit bulls (who have not specifically been trained for fighting) are in any way more inclined for violence than other dogs. It's just that if a couple of chihuahuas decided to go on a rampage like those two pits above, they wouldn't have been able to do any damage because they're a couple of little turd dogs. I'm sure I'm the millionth person to say this in this thread, but it is 100% the fault of the owners. Not only for doing a ****ty job of training their dogs, but also being negligent to allow their pits to get out. This has nothing to do with some kind of inherent violence in the breed. Anyone who has had any kind of significant exposure to a lot of dogs will tell you the same. It's time to ****ing let it go. It's getting to the point of being offensive. I wonder if there was a thread discussing the validity of the notion that black people are inherently violent, how many posts it would last before being locked. I'd put the over/under at 3.

I don't care if they're no more prone to violence than a golden retriever. It's about what they are capable of when they do go off.

Yes, but just maybe the answer is to figure out what owners can do to prevent them from going off (or alternately, what it is they're doing to encourage it) and not that we should eradicate the breed.

I'm just going to say when most dogs get out/loose, they run wild for a while. Hell, they might even kill a chicken. Dogs gonna dog.

But they aren't going to rip kittens to shreds or maim visiting 4 year olds when they 'get out'.

This is coming from the biggest dog lover going too. Some dogs are simply more dangerous than others.

I still stand by my opinion that the type of irresponsibility it takes to let your dogs get out like that is linked to the type of irresponsibility of training (or not training) a dog to attack like that. There is virtually 0% chance that my pit, or the pits of certain friends of mine, would ever act out like that.

gotcha.

If any dog tries killing my chickens, ****'s gonna get real.

one thing i hate is a lot of pitbull fanbois and owners like to act all innocent to convince you that they only like pitbulls because they are nice, cute or something something. probably over 90% of bull owners are perfectly ok knowing their dog is around for the one moment the dog can rip apart a home invader, or again something something.
pitbulls are guard dogs and fighting dogs, bottom line. although most of their owners have somehow convinced a lot of people that they are bred for some other purpose.

This. **** pitbulls. I would not complain if they were just made illegal.

Also rockcat +1

Pitbull owners are mostly drug dealers and miscreants who cheat on their taxes. Also they likely own guns. In general far more dangerous than their dogs.

Yes, yes there has.

There's a animal shelter in my neighbourhood, and one can walk the dogs there as a volunteer. 85% of the dogs in the shelter are pitbulls, staffords or bull-mixes. When the owners can't handle the dog, don't have enough space for it or it fails to qualify for basic behavioural tests it ends up in the shelter.

I volunteer there by taking the dogs for a walk. The dogs love this because they can leave the shelter for a while and run and play etc. Few years back I got bitten by a stafford. It managed to bite through my jeans, and get into my skin. Not only did he draw blood, the power of the bite left a big bruise. This incident led me to being really scared of big dogs for awhile. Subconsciously it still plays up once in a while.

However, to get over this I walked with more staffords from the shelter. I've never been bitten since by a dog from the shelter. I did get bitten by a maltheser on the street (out of the blue) and a border collie (when cycling past it). Some of those staffords were pure bundles of joy.

So I'm somewhere in the middle. You can't deny that once such a dog attacks, the consequences are much bigger than when a golden retriever attacks. But my view is purely European and we don't have Amish running puppy mills, and the whole dog buying process is completely different.

There's a animal shelter in my neighbourhood, and one can walk the dogs there as a volunteer. 85% of the dogs in the shelter are pitbulls, staffords or bull-mixes. When the owners can't handle the dog, don't have enough space for it or it fails to qualify for basic behavioural tests it ends up in the shelter.

I volunteer there by taking the dogs for a walk. The dogs love this because they can leave the shelter for a while and run and play etc. Few years back I got bitten by a stafford. It managed to bite through my jeans, and get into my skin. Not only did he draw blood, the power of the bite left a big bruise. This incident led me to being really scared of big dogs for awhile. Subconsciously it still plays up once in a while.

However, to get over this I walked with more staffords from the shelter. I've never been bitten since by a dog from the shelter. I did get bitten by a maltheser on the street (out of the blue) and a border collie (when cycling past it). Some of those staffords were pure bundles of joy.

So I'm somewhere in the middle. You can't deny that once such a dog attacks, the consequences are much bigger than when a golden retriever attacks. But my view is purely European and we don't have Amish running puppy mills, and the whole dog buying process is completely different.

Dont mean to derail but imo in Europe we have sick puppy mills as well ((malafide) broodfokkers). Not sure if it's actually that different all in all.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. Just think the scale of it is a tad different. Those aren't sold in a pet store etc.

I'm not sure that they are prone to being more violent than other dogs from birth. That said, I don't know which type of dogs you are comparing it to because it wouldn't be every single dog as that is just ridiculous to think that all dogs are born equal in terms of timidness and aggression.

However, I certainly see that they are often the subject of a number of reports of attacking other dogs or people. One thing I do know for sure is that their jaws are one of the strongest there is amongst the dog breeds and cause one of, if not the most damage when they attack.

Pit bulls are normally owned by people that try to ooze toughness. I haven't come across a report on a pit bull who has attacked where the owner hasn't been a scumbag POS.

Only in Europe would they do this. In Australia, the animal shelters that I know of just house mostly dangerous and aggressive dogs like your pit bulls and they wouldn't ever see the light of day outside a shelter being kept in a cage unless they were ordered to be released.

I get what you mean but I feel like a large part being played in that perception is geography of the US and how its better compared to Europe as a whole instead of parts of it. We're a well regulated country but if you compare with Spain, Italy or even France its pretty disgusting what happens there.
:S

Yak,

You are completely right. Thanks!

From the ASPCA. (Apologies if this has already been posted)

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Dog breeds are characterized by certain physical and behavioral traits. Each breed was developed to perform a specific job, whether that job is hunting rabbits, retrieving downed birds, herding livestock or sitting on people’s laps. When developing a breed, breeders selected only those dogs that performed their job best to produce the next generation.

Physical abilities and behavior are both important facets of any breed. A well-bred dog should have both the physical attributes necessary to perform its job and the behavioral tendencies needed to learn it. It’s not surprising that individuals of a specific breed tend to look and behave somewhat similarly. Pointers are more likely than Poodles to point, and sheepdogs are more likely than lapdogs to herd. However, while a dog’s genetics may predispose it to perform certain behaviors, tremendous behavioral variation exists among individuals of the same breed or breed type. It’s also important to note that some dog breeds are now bred for entirely different jobs than those for which they were originally developed. For example, certain strains of Golden Retrievers are now being bred as service dogs, a far cry from their original job of retrieving downed birds.

Today’s pit bull is a descendant of the original English bull-baiting dog—a dog that was bred to bite and hold bulls, bears and other large animals around the face and head.* When baiting large animals was outlawed in the 1800s, people turned instead to fighting their dogs against each other. These larger, slower bull-baiting dogs were crossed with smaller, quicker terriers to produce a more agile and athletic dog for fighting other dogs.

Some pit bulls were selected and bred for their fighting ability. That means that they may be more likely than other breeds to fight with dogs. It doesn’t mean that they can’t be around other dogs or that they’re unpredictably aggressive.* Other pit bulls were specifically bred for work and companionship. These dogs have long been popular family pets, noted for their gentleness, affection and loyalty. And even those pit bulls bred to fight other animals were not prone to aggressiveness toward people. Dogs used for fighting needed to be routinely handled by people; therefore aggression toward people was not tolerated. Any dog that behaved aggressively toward a person was culled, or killed, to avoid passing on such an undesirable trait. Research on pet dogs confirms that dog aggressive dogs are no more likely to direct aggression toward people than dogs that aren’t aggressive to other dogs.

It is likely that that the vast majority of pit bull type dogs in our communities today are the result of random breeding—two dogs being mated without* regard to the behavioral traits being passed on to their offspring.* The result of random breeding is a population of dogs with a wide range of behavioral predispositions. For this reason it is important to evaluate and treat each dog, no matter its breed, as an individual.

While a dog’s genetics may predispose it to behave in certain ways, genetics do not exist in a vacuum. Rather, behavior develops through a complex interaction between environment and genetics. This is an especially important consideration when we look at an individual dog versus a breed. Many diverse and sometimes subtle factors influence the development of behavior, including, but not limited to, early nutrition, stress levels experienced by the mother during pregnancy, and even temperature in the womb. And when it comes to influencing the behavior of an individual dog, factors such as housing conditions and the history of social interactions play pivotal roles in behavioral development. The factors that feed into the expression of behavior are so inextricably intertwined that it’s usually impossible to point to any one specific influence that accounts for a dog becoming aggressive. This is why there is such variation in behavior between individual dogs, even when they are of the same breed and bred for the same purpose. Because of the impact of experience, the pit bull specifically bred for generations to be aggressive may not fight with dogs and the Labrador retriever bred to be a service dog may be aggressive toward people.

Early positive experiences, most notably socialization, are considered key in preventing aggressive tendencies in dogs. Puppies that learn how to interact, play and communicate with both people and members of their own and other species are less likely to show aggressive behavior as adults. Given the powerful impact of socialization, it’s no surprise that dogs that are chained outside and isolated from positive human interaction are more likely to bite people than dogs that are integrated into our homes. Unfortunately, pit bull type dogs that find themselves in these conditions may be at greater risk for developing aggressive behavior. But because these factors are ones that can be controlled by better educated owners, it is possible to reduce these risks, not just in pit bulls but in dogs of all breeds.

The reality is that dogs of many breeds can be selectively bred or trained to develop aggressive traits.* Therefore the responsible ownership of any dog requires a commitment to proper socialization, humane training and conscientious supervision. Despite our best efforts, there will always be dogs of various breeds that are simply too dangerous to live safely in society. We can effectively address the danger posed by these dogs by supporting the passage and* vigorous* enforcement of laws that focus, not on breed, but on people’s responsibility for their dogs’ behavior, including measures that hold owners of all breeds accountable for properly housing, supervising and controlling their dogs.* Breed neutral “dangerous dog” laws, “leash laws” that prohibit dogs from running loose off their owners’ property, and “anti chaining” laws can control the behavior of individual dogs and individual owners and thereby help reduce the risk of harm to people and other animals.

Laws that ban particular breeds of dogs do not achieve these aims and instead create the illusion, but not the reality, of enhanced public safety.* Notably, there are no statewide laws that discriminate based on dog breed, and 18 states have taken the proactive step of expressly banning laws that single out particular breeds for disparate legal treatment.* Even the White House has weighed in against laws that target specific breeds. In a*a statement issued in 2013, President Obama said “[w]e don’t support breed-specific legislation—research shows that bans on certain types of dogs are largely ineffective and often a waste of public resources. And the simple fact is that dogs of any breed can become dangerous when they’re intentionally or unintentionally raised to be aggressive.”

All dogs, including pit bulls, are individuals. Treating them as such, providing them with the care, training and supervision they require, and judging them by their actions and not by their DNA or their physical appearance is the best way to ensure that dogs and people can continue to share safe and happy lives together.

Once I lived next to a couple that had two pit bulls and they assured me that they were not dangerous to me. Nonetheless the dogs always seemed to have a hostile attitude towards me whenever they knew of my presence. Even when the neighbors first introduced me to the dogs, the dogs growled in a light, yet unfriendly manner. They never acted very friendly as far as I recall.

One time I was in my car in front of my apartment unit and the front door of my unit was open (this fact will be relevant soon). I opened my car door and had no idea that the two dogs were standing right next to the car until I turned around and my hand very lightly bumped one of the dogs in the nose. It started growling a bit more aggressively than it ever had previously I believe. I stayed calm and just waited for the dogs to calm down. Then they trotted over to my apartment and decided to go inside of it and snoop around a little before the owners took note of what was happening and called them away.

I honestly would say that I really had no idea whether the dogs were a genuine threat to me, but I did not trust the owners nor the dogs, and I especially didn't like how the dogs were emboldened to have no regard for my personal space.

Can any experts here chime in conclusively as to the potential danger of these dogs given my description of their behavior?

I must say that I would have preferred that they were a different type of dog without a doubt. Furthermore the argument that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs should they decide to attack, and therefore should be subjected to different rules doesn't seem like an argument that should be easy to refute.

Pitbull owners are mostly trash.

Just reading this thread. Wow. Pit bull owners arguing that anyone who gets attacked "gave off nervous energy" and thus the pit bulls aren't responsible or hazardous.

JTM,

Let it go dude!

Literally, the post right above yours does refute it.

The behaviors displayed by those dogs above is 100% the direct result of bad ownership and training. Their owner has not established himself as the alpha male. If he had, they would not be acting aggressively, or feeling like they had free reign to sniff around your apartment. That is poor behavior that should not be tolerated by any dog owner, regardless of the breed.

And I do understand why your reaction would be of unease and feeling unsafe, instead of maybe just annoyed, had it been a neighbor's dog that was a weaker and smaller breed. I get it. But you have to know that ****ty dog owners are the problem here, not the breed. Also, unfortunately most dog owners are ****ty dog owners. It is a huge problem. But the answer should not be to just get rid of a breed.

That statement from the ASPCA in the post above yours I think really does a great job to explain the whole situation. I know it's long, but I would like to hear the argument against that from those of you who are anti-pit.

I have been around many pits in my life who are the result of good training and in loving environments, and they are some of the best behaved dogs I know. They are also incredibly affectionate animals. The only aggression my pit will display towards people is that she will bark at them when they initially enter our place. But I immediately say, "hey, cut it out." And then she stops and goes over to them for rubs. She has never, ever been aggressive towards someone in public, other than a crazy homeless guy who once got on all fours and started barking at her. So she started barking back, because she didn't know what the **** he was doing.

We take her to the dog park about 5 days a week, and we also do hiking with friends and their dogs, so she has tons of exposure with other dogs. She has only gotten into it with a dog one time, about six months ago at the dog park, when another dog inexplicably went after her and started attacking her. So she fought back to defend herself.

Of course, the ****ty owner was on the other side of the dog park (it's a huge dog park) and took his sweet time getting over there, so we had to pull both dogs off each other (which we did after about 5 seconds).

The other dog was not a pit, by the way.

I don't think pitbulls are good guard dogs. You want your guard dogs to be big and loud. Pitbulls don't give a ton of warning before they rip a person/animal to shreds.