Also, I never order a drink before she gets there--not on a first date. I don't think it's a big deal or anything, but I feel kind of weird sitting there with a drink when she pulls up. It's probably just me and me being super conscious of my alcohol consumption. For a second or third date, I don't mind ordering when I get there, but I never drink more than a quarter of it before she arrives even if she's super late.

dale,

This was only the second time I've ordered before my date arrived. On both occasions I decided to get to the destination about 15 minutes early. I'm growing fond of doing so as it gives me an opportunity to scope out the seating and relax a bit. The woman from last night had no problem that I was two drinks ahead of her. That she did not makes sense as the buzz loosens me up, allowing me to be present in the moment which no doubt makes me better company.

citanul,

I'm not an alcoholic in the sense that I'm addicted to the stuff. I did AA and could not relate at all to the people in the room beyond alcohol being a contributing factor to poor life decisions. If anything I'm someone who never grew out of my college binge drinking days. My challenge is not in avoiding the temptation to drink, it's stopping drinking. Basically my brain is wired to think that if a little bit is good then a lot must be much, much better.

BTW when I say I'm no longer showing physical interest, I mean that I basically maintain a mindset that I'm just there to get to know someone new and have a good time for a few hours. At some point last night our thighs were up against each other under the table and neither her nor I moved away. After about 5-10 minutes of this she began to complement me and kind of escalated by rubbing my arm a few times. I'm not so terrible at picking up social cues and shortly thereafter I was trying to get my hand in her crotch, which she liked.

That last sentence is gold.

It's not like I went directly for the goods; I work my way to it, teasingly like. By that point we'd already kissed a few times, she's complementing my appearance, petting my arm/shoulder and the conversation had turned to where we're going to meet next to "makeout".

ATF,

I believe not being able to control/stop drinking after you start is pretty much the core component of alcoholism.

Alcohol contributing to poor life decisions is also a pretty big component of alcoholism.

Cognitive dissonance theory explains human behavior by positing that people have a bias to seek consonance between their expectations and reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

to say the least. I was going to comment on it but I couldn't start expressing my thoughts.

How can you be a successful poker player and not realize that this be obviously entirely situation and villain (girl) dependent? The poker equivalent of what you just said is:

For example, "all in" is apparently not an entirely inappropriate response with A5 offsuit to "I raise". At least this time they called and I ended up winning the pot!

Point made. Obviously this isn't a standard line I throw out to that question or questions like it. When we're kissing at the table, she's petting me, complementing me, I've been pushing my hand into her crotch, and we're basically just looking into each other's eyes in silence... it seemed totally appropriate at the time.

I appreciate the feedback, I really do. I've told a close family member that I'm drinking on these dates, I'm completely honest about the amounts I consume, and she knows she has complete power to kick my ass if it seems like I'm falling into my old patterns. Having 2, 3, or 6 drinks in a social setting is much different than downing a fifth of vodka home alone. If I even come close to doing the latter again I know I'm going to be ****ed.

ATF,

For the record, I wasn't trying to bust your balls about the alcohol thing. As I said, I've had my own struggles with alcohol so I'm completely sympathetic. Also, my brother is trying to get sober, so I've been reading a lot about it.

Also, I kind of liked the imagining you naked line, tbh. I might very well use that in the future (if all the circumstances fall in line so that I think I can pull it off--ie, we've been drinking, touching, have an awesome rapport, and she gives me the opening by asking me something like that). I guess it's actually unlikely I'll ever have the opening, but I really do like it. Not being a smartass.

I think atf needs tough love. Dude is actively being a major **** up

I just had a first. As I was typing my last post, I got a text from a woman I went out with 2-4 months ago. Can't even remember. I had actually deleted her from my contacts. The text:

"Hi, is this Dalerobk from City X. This is Tracy from City Y."

wtf? She was really attractive and I had a good time with her. She texted me the next day about some random thing we talked about. I responded and suggested we get together later that week sure she would be up for it. Never heard from her again. I guess I'll respond just b/c I'm curious. This should be interesting.

She probably had gotten more serious with someone else just after she last saw you. And now she's single again and remembers liking you. I think it's a good thing.

ATF,

Let me know when we're setting this **** up.ima great wingman fwiw

Yeah, that's what I figure. I've just never had anyone get back to me months later. I'll text her in the morning. Had too much going on tonight.

This happened tonight. While last night I ****ed up by going on a first date on a weekend, tonight (well, I guess I did that too) I ****ed up by getting dinner. I thought that since she seemed really cool carrying conversation through dinner wouldn't be a problem (and it wasn't), but I spaced out and wasn't even considering the fact that physical escalation is basically impossible. We got Korean food and sat across from each other (with the table setup there's no option of sitting next to her), so indeed I was not able to touch her at all during the date.

But yeah, conversation was good, she's really cool, into a lot of the same video games as me (actual line that has possibly never been said by a girl on a first date before: "Yeah, I love Tasteless and Artosis, they're my favorite Starcraft casters"). She's also kinda shy though so I think if I were to continue to date her it would be much more of a slow-moving thing getting to know her.

Now to try to figure out where she's at and if she liked me. I could kinda go either way I think, in terms of either dating her or just being friends (not often I go out with a girl and actually think about being friends with her, but we're both into video games so that could work).

Dinner as a first date isn't a bad thing, it just cant be the entire date. Start with some drinks at a bar and if it goes well, go for dinner/a light bite. If THAT goes well, go to a bar for a drink or two more, and that's where the physical stuff happens. Reading the posts here it's like everyone assumes "physical escalation" is some formulaic **** that you have to do at XYZ times. It's not. It's something that :
a) happens naturally, leading to great results
b) is awkwardly forced, leading to very few positive outcomes
c) doesn't happen at all, which is better than B because you can still have A happen

Example:
Went for a first date Thursday with a girl I saw again tonight (and have a strong feeling I'm going to be seeing a lot more of for what I hope is a while) that was dinner. We met down the street from the restaurant, walked around a bit, had dinner, then walked around more. The only 'touching' that happened was offering my hand to her when she was standing up and stepping over a puddle. Are either of these "PUA" moves? No....but when you combine them with good conversation, mutual attraction and some very standard 'gentlemanly' things (hold the doors for her...women really, really, REALLY appreciate this) I ended up back at her place both thursday and tonight

IMO this isn't always bad. Going two dates without physical any physical escalation usually means you are sunk.

One on the other hand, especially with a girl that is shy, I think can even be a net positive.

Drinks --> A little more activity on the physical front --> ???? --> Profit

+1

Ship her my way please if things don't work out with you

Got booty texted last night ("not much. might want to kiss you" in response to my response to her post-date opener) by the girl I went out with Friday. Unfortunately I had a prior commitment that I could not get out of. The last time I was "dating" I don't think there were even cell phones so this is all new to me and I have no idea how to play this situation. Assuming I'd like some sex on the reg, do I need to seal the deal with her ASAP, can I just play it cool and at my convenience or is it entirely girl dependent? Also, if I get a similar text again am I expected to actually go out somewhere with her or is simply inviting myself over to her place anticipated / acceptable?

No, I understand and I don't take any offense to it. The last thing I ever want to do is return to my previous lifestyle, if it can even be called a lifestyle.

I struggle with what's appropriate "sex talk" on these dates. When I was younger I was much more quick-witted in that I had some ability to spit double entendres off-the-cuff, which women seemed to love. Alas I've lost that skill, however that I once had it makes being so blatant seem crude to me.