In regards to the Ethiopian 737 Max crash, I saw this in the article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/w...x-8-crash.html

So am I reading this right that the new 737s have software that can lead to a fatal descent, CANNOT be overridden by pilots, and was not explained to pilots?

If so that is scary. I am wondering in general just how much pilots rely on software to fly a plane, and what they can usually do manually if the software screws up? Or does it just usually always work perfectly and so pilots just trust it?

I obviously don’t know details but I wouldn’t read a lot into mainstream media reports like this. They have a hard time getting technical details right at the best of times and adding in the general uncertainty of an accident (especially before an official report) certainly doesn’t improve their accuracy.

According to the quote in this article it can and should be overridden.
https://www.apnews.com/881eadf66f684aef93998cbe1c8f6661

I flew in a Max8 last night SWA MCO-LAS. Was a little concerned but everything went fine except the inflight wifi was dead.

I guess we can wrap up the investigation then.

Several countries have grounded the Max8 pending a resolution/solution. Wonder what the FAA is waiting for.

Diane Feinstein to tell the FAA they should?


It sounds like pilot induced oscillation may be involved if they are trying to overcome the computer.

Shuffle, there can be all sorts of reasons that changes are required but the planes are still safe to fly.

These situations always bring out the crazies and the people with no knowledge of what happened or the basic processes involved here. These are also usually the people with the strongest opinions of what’s happened and what should be done about it.

None of those people would think there’s anything wrong with the FAA requiring changes for safety but still allowing the plane to fly.

The details of this case also don’t seem to imply a major immediate problem worthy of grounding the plane. But, obviously many details aren’t available to us and clearly other countries feel differently.

NYT article:

What Passengers Need to Know After the Boeing 737 Max 8 Crash

I'm assuming USA#1 didn't ground them because dolla dolla bill y'all.

Ridiculous that they haven't grounded the planes

Text of the FAA Airworthiness Notification

Subject: This message provides information regarding FAA continued operational safety activity related to
the Boeing 737-8 and Boeing 737-9 (737 MAX) fleet.

Situation description: Following the accident of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Model 737-8 airplane on
March 10, 2019, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) as the accredited representative, and the
FAA as Technical Advisors, are supporting the Ethiopian Accident Investigation Bureau. The FAA has
dispatched personnel to support the investigative authorities in determining the circumstances of this event.
All data will be closely examined during this investigation, and the FAA will take appropriate action if the
data indicates the need to do so.

External reports are drawing similarities between this accident and the Lion Air Flight 610 accident on
October 29, 2018. However, this investigation has just begun and to date we have not been provided data to
draw any conclusions or take any actions.

Following the Lion Air Flight 610 accident, the FAA has completed these activities in support of continued
operational safety of the fleet:

- Issued FAA emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2018-23-51 on November 7, 2018
- Validated that airplane maintenance and functional check instructions on Angle of Attack (AOA)
vane replacement were adequate
- Conducted simulator sessions to verify the Operational Procedures called out in FAA AD 2018-23-
51
- Validated AOA vane bench check calibration procedures were adequate
- Reviewed Boeing’s production processes related to the AOA vane and Maneuvering Characteristics
Augmentation System (MCAS)

Ongoing oversight activities by the FAA include:
- Boeing’s completion of the flight control system enhancements, which provide reduced reliance on
procedures associated with required pilot memory items. The FAA anticipates mandating these
design changes by AD no later than April 2019.
- Design changes include:
 MCAS Activation Enhancements
 MCAS AOA Signal Enhancements
 MCAS Maximum Command Limit

- Boeing’s plans to update training requirements and flight crew manuals to go with the MCAS
design change include:
o Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) and Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM)
Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community

Page 2
o Quick Reference Handbook (QRH) - notes in Speed Trim Fail checklist
o Airplane Maintenance Manual (AMM)
o Interactive Fault Isolation Manual (iFIM)
o Boeing has proposed Level A training impacts

Aircraft/engine make, model, and series: The Boeing Company Model 737-8 and 737-9 airplanes (737
MAX)

U.S.-registered fleet: 74 airplanes; Worldwide fleet: 387 airplanes

Operators: 59 operators worldwide: 9 Air, Aerolineas Argentinas, Aeromexico, Air Canada, Air China,
Air Fiji, AIR ITALY S.P.A., American Airlines, Arkefly, Britannia Airways AB, Cayman Airways, China
Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines, Comair, COPA Airlines, Corendon Airlines, Eastar Jet, Enter
Air Sp. Z O.O., Ethiopian Airlines, Fertitta Enterprises, Inc., flydubai, Fuzhou Airlines Co., Ltd, Garuda
Indonesia, Gol Linhas Aereas S.A., Hainan Airlines, Icelandair, Jet Airways, Jet Aviation Business Jets,
JSC Aircompany SCAT, Kunming Airlines, Lion Air, Globus Airlines, LOT Polish Airlines, Lucky Air,
Mauritania Airlines, Mongolian Airlines MIAT, Norwegian Air International Lt, Norwegian Air Norway,
Norwegian Air Shuttle AS, Norwegian Air Sweden, Okay Airways Company Limited, Oman Air, Qatar
Airways, Royal Air Maroc, Shandong Airlines, Shanghai Airlines, Shenzhen Airlines, SilkAir, Smartwings,
Southwest Airlines, SpiceJet, Sunwing Airlines Inc., Thai Lion, TUI Airlines Belgium, TUI Airways,
Turkish Airlines (THY), United Airlines, WestJet, Xiamen Airlines

FAA contact: Jeffrey E. Duven, Director, System Oversight Division

Telephone and Fax: (206) 231-3200

The FAA isn't remotely shy about grounding fleets of planes. They grounded the whole 787 fleet five years ago due to the lithium battery issues. If they think there's a problem they'll ground the fleet.

It doesn't help things for the uninformed public to panic and scream about how something needs to be done. That's how you end up with congress legislating air safety instead of the people that actually know what they are doing.

@Hero Protagonist
Valid point and hope you are correct, but that grounding was under the previous administration.

have the authorities given an opinion for what caused the first crash in October? if they couldnt identify the problem with the plane the last 5 months that's worrying. if there's a problem with the plane.

Yeah, it had to do with a faulty sensor that could trigger an automatic anti-stall measure. Boeing/FAA released an update on what to do if this happens.

Those are the "emergency directive" and AOA testing mentioned by the FAA

As I understand it, IF there's a 'problem' with the plane (likely, but far from certain) the most likely problem is around how the "anti-stall" system works in cases where there's a malfunction with the sensor that sends it data.

The directive basically tells pilots how to identify the problem and how to turn off the system. It doesn't seem particularly complicated and it seems reasonable to assume that every single active 737 MAX pilot has familiarized themselves with the procedure at this point. I don't see why you would need to ground the planes with this simple procedure available to pilots.

The directive also mentions:

Which I believe means that the FAA wants something other than relying on pilots dealing with this issue. One thing I'd read suggested that the issue last year was caused by MCAS relying on only a single sensor. The change is likely that it should rely on multiple sensors (which already exist).

Like almost all aircraft accidents it seems likely a combination of factors from maintenance, training, poor communication, and not enough redundancy in a flight system.

This is dumb and perhaps ignorant of the law.

seriously. just read one mainstream article about poker or something else you are very familiar with and count how many times you cringe. then realize the knowledgeable people in every other topic are doing the same thing

I’ll admit to being completely ignorant to the situation here, but what money does the FAA stand to make by not grounding the planes?

Add the UK to the list of countries that have grounded them.

Edit: The French Civil Aviation Authority has joined several other nations and closed French airspace to all Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft.

Taking a step back from the specifics of this case - there's a natural tension between automation and non-automation. This is always going to exist because humans and computers are good at different things.

So when we have an accident where it looks like automation is a contributing factor, people say "We should have less automation!" and when we have an accident where it looks like its pilot error, people say "We should have more automation"!. There were posts over in BFI the other day about how "planes can fly themselves" and we'd be safer if pilots didn't do anything at all (Note: This is clearly untrue.).

Flying is incredibly safe and so accidents are rare. They're so rare though that its probably pretty hard to get accurate and meaningful data on the exact right trade offs to make. But I do know that just reacting to every accident is probably not the right thing to do (and luckily the actual organizations for investigating accidents and making recommendations are generally pretty good - but it takes time for them to do their job).

A grounding would totally mess with Southwest's launch of Hawaii service, slated to start in five days on 3/17/19. https://www.southwest.com/hawaii/