my mom was a stewardess before she got married, do you think she was a slut?

Check out xkcd

It's the only comic I like more than Dilbert. Both are excellent.

Not at all. But your post brings her parenting skills into question.

Hey WOXOF,

Thanks for the awesome thread. I've read a lot of it but I haven't seen one question asked that has been on my mind recently.

Do you think that the "discount" airlines are any less safe to fly? For example, Spirit airlines has some flights for $9 (most deals are more like 29 to 39) but still, how can an airline have tickets this cheap while other airlines are 99 for the same flight? Are they using older planes or less experienced (cheaper) pilots? I know they save without having meals/snacks but that can't be the reason for such price differences...

Anyways, I've looked into these cheaper airlines but I'm weary of flying as it is and just wanted your thoughts on the subject.

Thanks

FYP: You can lead a donkey to water but...

Actually, owning their own regional for a variety of reasons including screwing their unions is more common than that. American Eagle operate 267 aircraft which is almost all of American's commuter fleet (I think Chautauqua fly a dozen or so RJs for American). American Eagle is owned by AMR, which is the same holding company that owns American. 100+ planes are operated by PSA and Piedmont as US Airways Express, which are both owned by US Airways Group, which is in turn owned by America West Holdings Corp. This is roughly half the regional fleet of US Airways. UAL is the only remaining legacy that doesn't own a significant fraction of its express fleet. Continental used to own ExpressJet, although they spun them off a while back.

It's an easy inference to make, but I don't think so. A lot of financial "magic" goes on with upstart airlines. They start off with much cheaper labor costs since everyone is on first year pay. They often get sweetheart deals from aircraft manufacturers: no money down, first payments 3 years from now and we'll throw in maintenance (<--- btw, this is just an example and may bear little resemblance to any actual deal), or they have gotten used planes for pennies on the dollar. And sometimes they even get big financial breaks from the local municipalities...things like free (or very cheap) gate space, tax incentives, etc. Politicians love to be able to take credit for bringing their constituents low cost travel.

Obviously, the ultra cheap fares can't work forever -- $9 per seat wouldn't pay for the fuel if they sold all the seats for that price -- but it just has to work long enough for the initial investors to make their killing. The labor force and equipment is all expendable.

You've been all over the country, and I have been nowhere. (besides Vegas) I have a $400 travel voucher for Delta that I received for giving up my seat on an overbooked flight. It's good for 1 year. When should I use it, and where should I go?

I like it. Added it to my bookmarks...thanks.

I should have remembered AMR, but I wasn't even aware of the other ones. Thanks for the information.

Without knowing what you like to do, that's a tough question. Hawaii is always great and that would be my #1 recommendation, if you haven't been anywhere. It's good all year round, though it has a rainy season in the Fall, I think.

You've got the Caribbean if you like that kind of thing . If you just want sightseeing and a place that has some interesting stuff to see, try NY or DC.

Internationally, you can't go wrong anywhere on the Mediterranean (Barcelona, Nice, Athens, all of Italy), but go from May-Sept for the best weather.

I didn't see your reply to this question regarding fractional ownership

I remember typing out a very detailed response to this one, but I can't find it anywhere itt now. I know what happened (and I've done it more than once): I never hit Submit Reply. I probably previewed it (as is my wont) and then never took that important last step.

So here goes again...

When I joined the club, I was sold a 1/5 share by the 4 existing owners (they split the $9000 I paid). We split up the remainder of the year by going around the table and each picking a week, Friday to Friday, until all the weeks were accounted for. (We went Friday to Friday using the logic that many getaways with the plane would include the entire weekend.)

The odd weeks (N mod 5, where N=# weeks selected) were left open to account for maintenance. If any maintenance came up during the year, the guy whose week it was would simply take one of those odd, leftover weeks in trade.

On the Thursday prior to each member's week, that member would leave a recorded message on a voicemail service we paid for. This message would say what plans that member had for the week, e.g. "This is Bill. I'll be using the plane all day Saturday and again on Tuesday from 9 am to 5 pm". Now, any other member could call and leave a message on the service to reserve any unclaimed time. Any unclaimed maintenance weeks were a free-for-all...first come, first served.

This system worked very well in those pre-internet days. Now, there are much better scheduling services available on-line.

Each holiday season we sat down and repeated the ritual of picking weeks for the coming year. The club had the same 5 owners for the duration of my ownership and I sold my share for the same price I bought in for 3 years after buying in.

How much was maintenance, storage, and insurance? Those would be the only other costs, right? Did you all split maintenance evenly, or were some problems determined to be an individual's fault? I'm assuming you all lived close to the hangar?

I can't remember the costs, even though I was the club treasurer. We had the plane hangared at Manassas, VA (W10 used to be the identifier for Manassas; now it's HEF) and I think that ran around $400/month. My drive to the airport was probably about 25 miles and I think that only one member lived within 10 miles of the airport.

We paid for everything by assessing ourselves monthly dues plus an dry hourly rate for the plane (dry means that it doesn't include fuel). I can't remember what our monthly dues were or even the hourly rate, but it was probably somewhere in the $25/hr to $40/hr ballpark.

We never had anything occur that could be blamed on an individual, so we never had to deal with that problem. Our single biggest expense was when we decided to repaint the plane. We had that done at a paint shop in Delaware and it cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $6000 iirc.

all day? this is like on page four, so call it 400 posts.



OP,

i've seen this thread and always assumed it got derailed and that was why it got this long.

finally opened the damn thing and i'm hooked.

sick thread!

Not quite finished the whole thread yet so I'm not sure if this has been asked already but this has prompted me to ask something I've always wondered. Namely, how does an aircraft measure wind speed and direction once airborne? An aircraft is basically traveling at its TAS relative to the body of air it's flying in but that body of air (and aircraft) will also be traveling in some direction. I think what I'm basically asking is wind speed and direction computed or directly measured, because I don't really see how it can be the latter.

I know this has been said 100 times already but this really is an awesome thread. W0X0F you have such a gift for simplifying the not so simple. I bet you didn't reckon on taking on such a huge task when you decided to create this thread either eh? :-)

Oh, one last question. Do you consider yourself to just a typical pilot in respect of your attitude to safety because I find your attitude very reassuring and although I'm an aviation enthusiast and by no means a nervous flyer, I'd certainly fly in any aircraft where you were up at the pointy bit.

Thanks again.

You're exactly right...it's computed. The plane 'knows' its heading and TAS and the nav systems (whether GPS or INS) provides ground speed and ground track. The difference is solely due to winds, which can be easily calculated (left as an exercise for the student ).

Somehow, that never gets old for me. Thanks.

I'm happy to say that I do consider myself typical in this regard. The safety of the operation really is our paramount concern. There's a familiarity that comes from doing this for many years and a lot of pilots have a very easy going and laidback persona, but they are still very serious about safety. It's the procedures and checks (and checklists) which make it so safe. And I'm a big fan of the "crew concept", i.e. two (or more) pilots are looking at everything and backing each other up. I've heard it said by more than one Captain in the preflight brief: "It's not a mistake unless we both make it." Another line I've heard: "Let's keep each other out of the Chief Pilot's office and out of the newspaper."

Thanks for confirming that (and so quickly too!). I'd always suspected that was the case but when listening to ATC I was always a little puzzled when aircraft proffered that information. I guess it also follows that aircraft below a certain size and instrument fit can't compute that information unless the pilot has his own handheld computer or somesuch (maybe Apple has an app for that? )
Thanks again and fly safe.

I had two copies of this in my email inbox this morning, sent from two pilot friends, one in Dubai, one in New Mexico. I expect it will be making the internet rounds of all pilots:

The Infamous Airline Interview

I walked into the interview with a great deal of confidence and enthusiasm. Flying airplanes was my one true passion in this life. This was my big chance to merge my occupation with my love. I would become an airline pilot.

"So you want to be an airline pilot?" the interviewer inquired.

"Yes, sir, more than anything else I have ever wanted," I replied, realizing I sounded like an anxious adolescent.

"Well, great, welcome aboard," the airline executive said.

"You mean I'm hired?!" I cheered.

"You bet, we're glad to have you. Actually, we've had trouble finding good pilots to hire," the exec explained. If I was surprised, it was overshadowed by my joy of reaching my dream.

"Let's just go over a few points before you sign on the dotted line," the company man chortled. "We're going to send you to the world's most renowned medical center. They'll spend two days probing your body orifices, draining and analyzing your blood, and administering psychological exams. They'll literally take you apart and put you back together. If they find any hint of current or future problems, you're fired and can find your own ride home."

"Gee, I think my health is OK," I nervously choked out.

The manager went on, "Good, next we'll evaluate your flying skills in an aircraft you've never been in before. "If we don't like the way you perform, you're fired,"

I was confident with my flying, but this guy was making me nervous.

He continued, "Next, if you're still here, we'll run you through our training program. If during any time in the next 10 years you decide to leave the company, you'll have to reimburse us $20,000, or we'll sue you. Also if you fail to measure up during training, you're fired."

The man who had just given me my dream job listed still more hurdles. "Each time, before we allow you near one of our multimillion dollar aircraft we'll X-ray your flight bag and luggage, because we don't trust you. Also we'll ask you to pass through a magnetometer each time. If you fail to do so, you'll be arrested and jailed."

"When you've completed your flight, we'll have you provide a urine sample, because we don't trust you to not take drugs. Very soon, we plan to take a blood sample to look for more drugs. "Also if you ever fly with another crew member who may have used drugs or alcohol, you must report to us immediately. If you fail to notice that anyone has used these substances, you'll be fired, have your license to fly revoked, and be fined $10,000."

"Every six months, we want you to go back to the medical center for another exam. If they ever find a hint of a problem, your license to fly will be revoked and we'll fire you. Anytime you see a medical person, you must tell us about it so we can see if you need to be grounded and terminated. Also, we need to examine your driving record, and you must tell us if you have even any minor infractions so we can remove you from the cockpit as soon as possible."

"At any time, without notice, a special branch of the government will send one of its inspectors to ride in your aircraft. The inspector will demand to see your papers and license; if your papers are not in order, you'll be removed, fined, terminated, and possibly jailed."

"If at any time you make an error in judgment or an honest human mistake, you will be terminated, be fined tens of thousands of dollars, and be dragged through months of court proceedings. The government will make sure you never fly again for any airline."

"You will be well out of town most holidays, weekends, and family events - half our pilots are always on the job at any point in time.

Smiling an evil smile now, the airline hirer went on. "Oh, and one last thing to cover. Occasionally, we in management fail to see a trend and screw up royally or the country's economy falls flat on its face. If as a result of one of those events the corporation begins to lose money, you as an employee will be expected to make up the losses from your paycheck. Of course, management will not be held to the same standards.

Oh, and one last thing - if we negotiate pay and work rule concessions from you in the in exchange for a better pension plan, we probably won't fund that pension plan agreement (unlike the management pension plan and golden parachutes) and will likely have yanked it away from you."

"Now sign here," he pointed, grinning as he handed me a pen.

I faked a sudden nosebleed. Holding my head back and pinching my nostrils, I hurried from his office. When I got to the hall, I began to run. I ran all the way to my car. I figured if I hurried I could still get to the county vocational school before 5:00 and enroll in the industrial welding career program. !!

I flew back from Vegas the other day and was on a 777 from Chicago to Dulles, it seemed that I was seated at the exact center of gravity of the aircraft to the point that if the pilot applied rudder or stick I could actually see and feel the aircraft pivot around me. Is this common on jumbos? It was almost vertigo inducing, to the point I needed to move to one of the outer rows. (gotta love a 777 with about 50 people on it)

sick short flight for a 777.

btw, I was on a flight tonight from mia to sjo (aa2141) and I saw a sign in the bathroom that would make w0x0f cringe:

"As a courtesy to other passengers may we suggest that you wipe the washbasin with a towel" (paraphrase)

I felt like writing below it with a sharpie "Yes you may suggest that"

Had to be United, right? That's an unusual observation/sensation (having the aircraft 'pivot' around you) and not one I've heard anyone express. Did you find that the sensation changed completely once you changed seats? What were the flight conditions (smooth or turbulent)?

Yeah, I've seen the sign you're referring to and I've thought of the same 'answer' to this question.

How organized do you think airlines are in general? What I mean is, when it comes to delays, cancellations, etc.

Last week coming home from DFW to DTW our flight gets delayed then canceled b/c of 2 inches of snow in dallas. I mean wtf, then they cancel a bunch of other flights, just gets to be a mess.

How can they just stop everything for a little snow.