thanks,, how realistic are the full motion sims? does it have everything down to a tee in what you'd experience in the real 767?

Hey W0X0F,
I got a strange question for you, I meant to ask you this a while ago but didn't know how to word it. Here it goes: While driving a car I am able to tell how the car behaves, meaning I can tell when it moves forward, when it leans to the left or right because of uneven pavement in other words I am very aware of the forces that are present when driving a car. Can you feel the same directional movements in a 767? I am not talking about a 30 degree turn or fast take off acceleration which is obvious, I am talking at cruising altitude, can you tell easily if a plane drifts to the left or right or goes up and down. (without looking at the instruments). Hope that makes sense, thanks.

I have taken several early morning flights recently and was wondering when a plane sits at the airport overnight, are there any extra checks you must perform for the first flight of the day? Also, sometimes I see they sit at the gate all night and other times they bring them in from what looks like a holding area a few hundred feet away. Any particular reason for one sitting at the gate overnight and one not? I always thought the pilots gave the flight attendants a chime when we were above 10,000 Ft. after takeoff to let us know we could use approved electronics, but the other day, we couldn't have been at 3,000 Ft. and she gave us the all clear. Could this be just jumping the gun? Do you think the pilots got annoyed?

When the plane changes from a steady state, you can feel the changes in your body (g forces) and from the change in engine sound and slipstream noise (this is more noticeable in light aircraft). But if the changes are very gradual it can be difficult to sense and that's why commercial pilots try to do everything smoothly. For example, if I'm at 32,000' and I'm given a clearance to climb to 34,000', I'll just slightly increase power and ease the nose up a degree or two to climb at 500 fpm rather than pushing the throttles all the way forward and zooming up.

When you ask about the plane drifting left or right, I assume you mean altering heading (i.e. the direction the nose is pointing). One of two things will cause the heading to change: bank angle or rudder input. If either input is very small, the heading can drift very slowly and could be indiscernible.

A slightly out-of-trim plane is much more noticeable in a light plane than in a large one. In small aircraft, lots of flight time results in a calibrated ass -- you can just kind of feel the plane slipping or skidding if the rudder is out of trim. A slight bank is also much more noticeable in small aircraft just from visual cues. You can see your wingtips and it's quite apparent if there's a difference relative to the horizon between the left and right wings.

On many large planes, we can't even see the wings so we depend entirely on the artificial horizon and the ball in the slip indicator. If I look at the artificial horizon and I see that the autopilot is holding the plane in a slight bank to the right (I'm talking one or two degrees), then I know that the rudder must be slightly out of trim to the left so I'll make a slight correction in the rudder trim and see where it settles. With a wing down, the plane is in slightly uncoordinated flight and presenting more drag to the slipstream and therefore fuel consumption will be higher (not enough to affect that flight, but it adds up across the fleet). I can't feel this slight out-of-trim situation though and it would be easy to fly across the country this way. No one would notice.

Yes there are. The Preflight Checklist and has a list of "first flight" items at the top. These items are checked for the flight flight of the local calendar day:



It's mainly a case of limited gate space so they have to play musical chairs with what they've got.

Not sure why she would do this, but I don't really think it matters and the pilots probably weren't even aware she did it unless they were monitoring the PA (which I don't; I have enough chatter on the radio while climbing out without that distraction). Even if they did hear it, I don't know any pilot who would get upset about it.

The whole electronics thing is kind of a funny topic and it's been discussed previously here. When I commute, I'm always amused at the whole tug-of-war that the flight attendants have to play with the passengers. And although I'm not convinced that having your iPad on is a safety of flight issue, it's amazing to me how adults will act like children with their non-compliance on this issue. I mean, what's the big deal? Turn off your damn device if that's the rule, even if you don't agree with it.

One thing to add here, is that without reference to a horizon and instruments it's impossible to tell what the plane is doing. It takes several hours of training to get comfortable enough controlling the plane in cloud with instruments. You would very quickly lose control of the aircraft if all your instruments failed while in cloud.

Without getting into details, was that the case with Air France flight? Besides hitting the storm I read somewhere that once they went into the stall the body adjusts to the fall and you cant tell that you are falling down...

Thank you for taking your time to answer my questions.

You mentioned rudder correction during flight, what about making steep turns, does the rudder automatically turn along with other controls or do you have to use your feet to adjust it? Also, while cruising can the autopilot control the rudder or do you always have to keep your eye on it and trim it?

Just as an example. Delta has 4 flights leave from Orlando (MCO) to ATL before the first flight from ATL is turned around. If you happen to arrive in MCO on one of the later flights in the evening (where the plane won't turn around until the following morning) you will find yourself parking at a gate used by one of the Int's carriers because all the regular gates are full.

Remember that all the chimes (flight deck to cabin crew, front of cabin flight attendant to back of cabin FA, passenger call button, etc.) make the same noise, so could have been that.

Which leads me to ask W0X0F this...

In this day of uber technology, are you surprised that this has not changed? Like you would think you could just press a button at 10k and there would be an auto-announcement. Or you could turn off the seatbelt sign and there would be an announcement. Or at least the chime would be different when it was a passenger than if it was the flight crew.

I know the new ERJs have replaced the no smoking sign with a "no electronic devices" light, but I'm surprised more similar gadgets haven't been installed.

One place where I have seen this cause trouble: When a pilot rings an FA to let them know the plane is holding short of the gate. That chime goes and half the plane stands up.

I've been on flights where almost all the announcements are automated. It depends on airline/age of plane I think.

We avoid steep turns in airline flying...passengers don't like it. So we limit ourselves to a max of 30° of bank. In light aircraft you definitely need to use rudder along with aileron to establish a turn due to adverse yaw, but in large aircraft the flight controls have some interconnects that makes this less important. Our inputs to the rudder are mainly during takeoff and the approach and landing.

The autopilot doesn't control the rudder in normal flight. (The one exception to this is during a coupled approach. At about 1500' agl the autopilot takes control of the rudder and will use proper crosswind technique to land the airplane.) Because it only uses aileron to hold heading, it will crank in as much as it needs to counteract a mis-trimmed rudder. This can actually be seen in the cockpit as the yoke (steering wheel) is tilted one way or the other.

The amount of rudder trim required is a function of airspeed. At slower speeds, you need more rudder in the slipstream to achieve the same effect. Reaching cruise altitude, it may be necessary to re-trim the rudder slightly to account for the speed change, but once it's set it doesn't really change for the duration of the flight. When we click off the autopilot during the approach (and we're at a slower speed) we will often need to adjust the rudder trim again.

Yes it was. If it had been daytime, visual conditions, I'm sure they would have recovered. They were disoriented and the inner ear can't be trusted in those situations.

The inner ear is very good at detecting changes in motion, but it can be easily fooled. This is something I demonstrate to primary flight students. With an instrument hood on (so they can only see the instrument panel), I have the student look down at his lap while I maneuver the plane. If I gradually bank the plane to the right, say to 45°, and then abruptly roll out some of this bank, the student will perceive that we're in a left turn. If I ask him to recover without looking at the instruments, he will usually increase the bank to the right which then causes other problems (the aircraft beings to descend and speeds up which causes the student to pull back, etc, etc).

Hey W0X0F,

Are you now designing crossword puzzles in your spare time?

Today's Tribune Media Crossword (LA Times, Chicago Tribune, and many others) could have been called a day with W0X0F...

37 Down: Big name in online poker (8 letters) F_ _ _ T _ _ _ (yeah not anymore)

28 Down: Pro-shop Freebie (10 letters) G _ _ _ P _ _ _ _ _

and

36 Across: SkyMiles Airline (5 Letters) D _ _ _ _

Related to what you can and can't feel when flying, what about the yoke? Watching a doc where they were discussing the early problems with FBW, one of the pilots (a German fellow) didn't like the switch to the side-stick. As he put it, with a mechanical linkage he could tell exactly what the plane was doing by keeping a hand on the yoke. In a situation like you described, would you feel the AP pushing the yoke to counter the ill-trimmed rudder, for example?

I may be dense, but I can't figure out 28 Down. The only thing I can figure that fits is GolfPutter, but that's not a freebie.

(btw, here's another example of a crossword puzzle coincidence)

The lack of tactile feedback was a big problem with the first F-16s. The side-stick did not move at all; it simply responded to pressures.

From Wikipedia:

With the autopilot engaged, I can see the yoke move when we make a turn. And if the rudder is out of trim, I can see that the yoke is being 'held' either right or left to counteract the rudder.

On the MD-88, with its completely mechanical flight controls (pushrods and pulleys, no hydraulics), the amount of movement in the yoke could be very dramatic during an autopilot-flown approach, especially in windy conditions...lots of left/right, back and forth movement as it wrestles the plane down final. It was the same if hand-flown. Sometimes I didn't feel like I was so much flying the plane as beating it into submission.

GolfPencil.

Had trouble with that one myself. The only thing I could remember ever getting free from a golf course was a humility lesson!

The link you posted was very fascinating. I have long enjoyed reading about Op. Overlord; had never come across that story. Thanks!!

I've read most of this thread and while i do feel better about flying, from the standpoint of pilot capabilities and training which I'm much more aware of and comfortable with following this thread, stuff like this still makes me uneasy:

(WRT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...nes_Flight_191 )
I mean yeah, bad publicity and all, but how much more cautious is a 500.000$ fine going to make an airline in the future? 273 people died in that one crash alone...


Oh and jfc, didn't even reach the end of the wiki article... I mentioned bad publicity? Get a load of this


Also, statistics are a pet peeve of mine and I'm sure it will be easy to understand why, comparing these two quotes:


I bet few people have ever seen things put in that light.

meant to edit above post, but I can't anymore, too much time has passed, apparently.

edit:
btw, i'm not trying to troll this thread or anything. I've read it with great pleasure and appreciate the ton of work w0x0f spent making it what it is. just felt like ranting a bit after finding the first quote while looking up the link w0x0f posted 7-ish pages back then kept finding stuff and thought it was worth it to lay it out.

I think the fine and the accident report that says the airline did something that was a contributing factor would make for a very hard to defend civil case. In the 70's, Ford estimated they'd have to pay $200k per death whenever a Pinto blew up, which would extrapolate to at least $55m American would pay if all 273 families/estates sued.

As a math major myself, I know very well that statistics can be used to represent an issue from many angles. Statistics can enlighten or obfuscate.

There are so many different ways to look at this topic: by event (i.e. a given plane trip vs. a given bus trip); by miles; by passenger-miles. With everything else being equal (which is ridiculous to say in the first place for such obviously different modes of transportation), flying would seem to be less safe just on the face of it. After all, you're going at speeds that lead to much more spectacular accidents when they occur; you're flying in a regime that humans aren't meant to be in (insufficient oxygen, for starters); and you can't just "pull off the road" when things seem to be not going quite right.

But consider this: would you rather take your chances on a bus ride from New York to L.A. or on a flight? I'll take the plane every time and the reason is the infrastructure (airways, ATC, aircraft maintenance, pilot training, etc). Everything has safety as a focus. With a bus ride, there's a lot of external variables that the bus company and driver have no control over (mainly other drivers). Now, I admit that this is just my take on it and is quite probably not backed up by "statistics" (however you might want to slice them).

I can also tell you quite honestly that my own stress level is higher when driving on the Capitol Beltway here in D.C. than when I'm cruising at Flight Level 390.

actually, I'd probably take the train

I mean you mentioned at some point you being more comfortable b/c you know the other planes in the sky are flown by very well trained pilots vs drivers a lot of whom are idiots (you didn't say the idiot part, I'm saying it) which is true. But considering trains are 'piloted' by trained individuals also and considering they run on tracks I would feel waaaaay safer on a train than any other mode of transport.

What you say in the rest of your post I totally agree with (especially the part about everything else equal being ridiculous)

I'll buy that! The few train rides I've taken have been very comfortable and overall enjoyable experiences.

Boeing's 787 will be sharing the friendly skies soon.

Any thoughts on the carbon fiber materials, Rolls-Royce engines, avionics, etc.?

The train always seemed like a good idea; then, when I checked, it was a THREE day trip from Orlando to LA. I've done a few rail overnights (FL to DC & in the UK) and that's enough time on a train. I'll fly a trans-con every time.