Thanks for the complement. I would love to consider myself charming but I am not sure that is true. I am certain that I have a devilishly handsome redline at the superturbos though. Unfortunately the actual winnings did not cooperate. That was the original game I played with Team Moshman prior to them discouraging their students to play them due to this very reason.

zero

Class act ITT.

Not a zerosum fanboy or DTB member. Just a guy who likes poker books who has been following this thread. Zerosum has handled himself with an immense amount of class despite being put through the ringer (not saying it isnt deserved, new authors should expect this in poker) and this latest example really impressed me.

Any timeframe on a Mac and/or iPad version?

I am working on it right now. Unfortunately no timeline though. Its actually a drawback I had not realized when selecting drm software.

As someone who recently purchased this course i can say that im more than happy. Ive read alot of poker books, been a member of alot of training schools, so ive been around the block.

This book is by far the easiest reading experience i have had. The information is set out in a clear and concise way making the concepts easy to understand. The accompanying quiz videos really help compound that learning in a very quick way.

My understanding of the game and the ability to make correct decisions has improved immensely in just a few days.

Couple that with the fact that when i have emailed Zerosum some questions i had about some concepts in the book, he emailed me back very detailed answers to my questions within 24 hours, and considering how busy he must be that speaks volumes for him as a person and someone who really backs his product.

I would have no hesitation in purchasing further courses from him. All i can do is sing his praises.

Clever Cutter - I am excited to report that the book will run on Mac if you run a virtual windows terminal. I am not sure about the details of running virtual windows but can talk with you offline if you are interested in this option.

Regards,
zero

I probably should have mentioned a run all apple computers. I was concerned about this. I have not had a virtual machine running windows for years. I am bummed as I was really looking forward to the book.

I definitely agree that no matter how comprehensive a book/system is, or how long it took to produce, that alone doesn't justify a particular price. Ultimately in any market prices just come down to supply and demand. If you want to come out with a system to beat $1 tournies and charge $10k for it you can absolutely do that, but you'll almost certainly end up with 0 sales. So while my opinion is that Greg chose a very reasonable price for his system, it's of course up to everyone to decide for themselves whether that price is worth it to them.

I didnt read the book, but i think the pivot system is very complicated to memorize. It is much easier to remember the equity that you need to call a shove,add the bubble factor and then remember what % of Hands you can call against x% shoving Range.
For example: I know that i need 50% Equity. Then i can remember that i can call just under half the Range from the shover. If i need 45% EQ i can call 0,6-0,7* the Range of the shover. I think its much easier if you think in frequencies than to memorize so many pivot points.Especially when the bubble factors get high there will be so many different stacksizedistributions with different bubblefactors etc. that it is impossible to make pivot points for all of these situations and remember these points.

That was poor advice from Team Moshman. If you're a winning player you can get a better hourly from these as obviously they don't take long to play. The advice should have been to maintain a bankroll big enough for them as the ROIs are lower.

I agree. After playing for a while a lot of the ranges do become second nature but for the most part the pivot system is meant to be implemented through memorization. The system can be condensed to about two important strategy sheets (PBJ, and Calling Ranges) which are very easy to use while playing. They are also very easy to adjust for different in game situations.

So the method is really more:
1. Recognize the situation
2. Read the pivot off a sheet
3. Adjust the pivot for any in game factors
4. Implement the adjusted range.

Its pretty realistic to implement this system up to 16 tables, although personally I was more comfortable at about 12. I had students playing up to 24, so I am not sure what the upper bound is on this.

Regards,
zero

Does this mean you were not able to get it running? I don't use Mac's so I really have no idea what virtual windows is or how it is implemented. Does it have to be built in or is it something you can install?

zero

SiQ

"I also get the feeling that this method makes that "base" range (or pivot point) you come up with way too important, neglecting a bit the importance of how sensitive ranges are to changes in some game dynamics."

zerosum79

"One of the things I hope is emphasized in the book is that pivot points are picked specifically to be stable."

The last sentence from you shows the weakness of this rigid "pivot points" approach. The pushing and calling ranges of opponents is never going to be "stable". If you use a hud you will see that the players all have different numbers. Elsewhere you disparage the use of sngwiz as after the event but sngwiz does show the ranges that would actually be profitable and not approximations based on push bot sheets which are themselves approximations.

The low stakes games which your system beats ($7 and below on PS) can be beaten by anyone who spends a little time checking the ranges with an ICM calculator and imv your system has the considerable disadvantage that it needs to be unlearnt in order to beat the higher levels as pushbot sheets are not a sound foundation on which to build the knowledge needed.

"Moshman: For a beginning or intermediate player though, a resource that breaks down all the basics in a clear and well-written way can be invaluable. Learning basic strategies for post-flop play, how to approach the push/fold segment of the game, make the right bubble adjustments, etc. This is what the course is designed to accomplish, and I believe succeeds at very well."

The fact that you would call a system "rigid" when it is designed to be flexible shows that you completely miss the point and really have no idea what you are talking about.

For example, if you look at the magic range, it is stable. Regardless of player ranges, it almost never varies that much. That is what makes it so useful. However, the idea of pivoting (adjusting) is something that is key to the system and something you seem to ignore entirely. The fact that you have never read this and really have no idea what you are talking about is fantastic.

Troll on though, reading your posts is always amusing.
zero

Would you care to revise this opinion in the light of his response to criticism ? I got the same in his stt thread where zerosum asserted that players do not have to push wide with 5bbs until they get utg.

It is simply impossible to get him to be accountable for any of his "theories". SiQ rightly described zerosum's pivot point/pushbot sheet system as a cookie cutter approach.

zerosum79

"2. Read the pivot off a sheet
"3. Adjust the pivot for any in game factors"

No you miss the pont. It's a fixed range you read off a sheet which you are supposed to "magically" adjust in game to get the right result.

Vis a vis "magic ranges" isn't it just better to look at the ranges that were actually +EV ? You don't learn multiplication tables by saying that 7 x 7 is always close to 47.

I feel that there is confusion here. The pivot points (PPs) written onto a chart are of course fixed - they have to be as you are writing down a framework. The IMPLEMENTATION and application of these PPs is not fixed, because zerosum makes it clear that you have to adjust your shoving/calling ranges based on the both the dynamics of the game and the tendencies of the villain.

Further, the process of creating the push chart is critical, as THIS is the important part, not the end result chart, IMO. This is because the intelligent reader should be playing around with the Wiz calling ranges of, eg the BB, to see how much your shoving range should change accordingly.

As a consequence, you are left not just with a "fixed" and rigid push chart, but a very flexible understanding of ranges which, as I mentioned above, you adjust depending on the play.

Sorry mate, I'm not trying to pick on you! But I wonder if you are misquoting zerosum's point here? He was most likely saying that it is not really necessary to take a -Ev shove until UTG, eg 6 handed? It's quite obvious that one is shoving wider with 5bb, when that move is taken, in any position.

Of course he is miss quoting it. I didn't say you you don't shove pretty widely in this situation. I said that the utility of using the calculation I mentioned to evaluate effect of the BB hitting you is less since it is several hands away.

For example - In the COS PBJ sheet even in middle position you can see that I already advocate taking a negative edge in middle position with 5BB. This means essentially shoving wider than is +ICM and shoving pretty widely.

However, trying to argue with this guy is like trying to teach a 2 year old calculus. I simply gave up in that thread.

zero

The feeling of exasperation is mutual. This is what you posted :-

"you are always losing equity as you move toward the blind. However, this is compensated by the fact that you are also going to be getting a new hand each time that is a chance to make a +EV shove. Therefore this strategy only really becomes crucial UTG."

The strategy being to push wider. You followed it up with a gibberish calculation in which you made up all the figures to confirm that it only matters utg.

"I would say that you can probably ignore the effects outside of the UTG position when ~5BB deep."

The only thing that is clear is that

1. You just want me to be wrong regardless of my actual position.
2. In my frustration with responding to a barrage of unfriendly and biased comments (from you) I used some vague pronouns that made my point a bit unclear rather than taking the time to respond in a way that was clear enough for someone who is obviously biased and hypercritical for no real productive reason.

Let me restate.

When you are a short stack you should always be looking for situations to shove wider than the +ICM result. You should be looking to use smaller and smaller or even negative edges in SNG wizard. Anyone who had read my book would know I take this position. Anyone who had ever seen anything I have posted on DTB would know I take this position. You have obviously done neither but for some reason have passed judgement.

Specifically - The utility of this calculation is probably only relevant for the UTG position. This is not to say you should not shove wider than the +ICM result from other positions when 5BB deep. It is to say that this calculation really works best for the 5BB UTG situation and I do not think it can be easily applied to other positions since figuring out how much of an effect the BB has (since you can still get other hands) requires too many assumptions to be a viable tool.

zero

Never easy on the 2+2 book forum. I did take up Zero on his offer and I purchased the book. I am looking forward to reading it and I will post a review.

Unfortunately this explanation is inconsistent with the paragraph you wrote immediately above in the post :-

"If anyone else is interested though, yes you are always losing equity as you move toward the blind. However, this is compensated by the fact that you are also going to be getting a new hand each time that is a chance to make a +EV shove. Therefore this strategy only really becomes crucial UTG."

Good work deleting your last profane post before the mods showed up with the ban hammer.

This message is hidden because Cwocwoc is on your ignore list.

I am done with you dude. I have never ignored anyone before on this forum so consider it a win if that was your goal. My last statement on the subject to you is that you add no value to this conversation other that to keep bumping a thread that you seem to hate.

For me its great. Keep this thread at the top of the page.

Regards,
zero