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12-29-2012 , 04:38 AM

tyler22

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 294

I have read and re-read the Harrington on Holdem books and like the TAG style he teaches. I play mostly MTT's and wanted to ask the forum if you think it's still possible to win with this style.
I know A LOT of players say to win in 2012 you gotta become LAG (like the Elky's and Jonathan Little's) but is this true? Can you still win with a TAG approach to the game or do you have to open in up in this day and age of tournament poker?
Mind you...I play mostly the smaller buy-in live tournaments. $75 - $150 with 5000 chips and roughly 20min blind levels.

Thanks, Sam

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12-29-2012 , 01:08 PM

fidstar-poker

I'm gonna need a hacksaw

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 34,151

You can be a winner at low buy ins with a TAG style if the games you play are similar to the ones I have played. You just got to open it up when you get shortstacked.

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12-30-2012 , 12:58 AM

xxl_w1

self-banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 664

Of course you can win with a TAG style. If you read HOH you will crush tournaments. Those who say you must play LAG are lying. They want to take your money that's why they say you must play LAG.

Last edited by xxl_w1; 12-30-2012 at 01:04 AM.

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12-30-2012 , 03:47 AM

the_spike

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,615

Well, there is a certain truth to winning with the LAG style. Virtually all the top pros now take risks to accumulate chips, even at the risk of busting out by playing too loosely.

However, it's still possible to win by playing tight. The key is to realize that when you get short, you're shorter than you think. Harrington was probably a little too conservative on that point. Read Arnold Snyder for more on this point.

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12-30-2012 , 02:33 PM

tyler22

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 294

When I get short stacked I've tried opening it up a little bit sooner than Harrington suggests. Instead of waiting until I'm at 5-10 big blinds to start pushing....I may start at 10-15. This may help fix being shorter than I think?

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01-02-2013 , 01:24 AM

tyler22

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 294

I have read the Poker Tournament Formula by Snyder. I realize that when you're short stacked in these low buy-in fast structured tournaments you are in worse shape then Harrington suggests because of the blind structure and you have to play a little quicker and looser.....but do you guys find the PTF by Snyder MUCH TOO LOOSE or is it pretty accurate?

Thanks again, Sam

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01-02-2013 , 03:23 PM

the_spike

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,615

I haven't been able to bring myself to play this style. But my guess is that it's not too loose. The style of the majority of big tournament winners is rather LAGgy, and depends on accumulating chips by hook or by crook, and definitely not by waiting for good shoving opportunities when very short stacked. They make their moves before that happens, because they consider themselves crippled already at that point (per Snyder).

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01-02-2013 , 03:36 PM

the_spike

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,615

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyler22

Well that depends - even Harrington uses an M value, which includes all blinds and antes (you're not mentioning antes.) Once antes kick in, you're really getting short fast. Here's just an example. Blinds $800/1600, antes $200, 9 players at the table. You have $20K in chips. You are pretty damn short stacked even by Harrington's calculation. Yes you have more than 10 big blinds, but your M value is only 5 which means it's desperation time. The difference between Snyder and Harrington is that Snyder says you should have seen this coming and acted as if you were desperate before you got in this situation.

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01-02-2013 , 06:10 PM

tyler22

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 294

How do you feel about the way Snyder plays late position? He plays almost anything in late position and in the blinds.....even when your M really doesn't call for it. Also seems to advocate C-betting the flop, turn and river alot. Could this be spewing chips unnecessarily?

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01-03-2013 , 11:10 AM

#10

Specter

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 73

What's the name of this Snyder book? Is it a series?

The first books I've ever read were the Harrington on hold en series. I think it's an excellent foundation, but you have to open up your game from there. You certainly don't have to be full out LAG to be a winning player, but you do need to know how to act like one when the situation dictates.

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01-03-2013 , 04:53 PM

#11

the_spike

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,615

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyler22

How do you feel about the way Snyder plays late position?

It's not about late position, it's about how he prioritizes the attributes he considers important, namely cards, position, and stack sizes. Which one is most important depends on the overall situation. If he's playing weak cards in late position, then it's in a situation where thinks position trumps cards and possibly even stack size.

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01-04-2013 , 12:00 AM

#12

tyler22

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 294

Seems to me like there are a LOT of "dubious" situations with the rock-paper-scissors strategy though. I think I get the theory of it, just seems like you're getting yourself involved when you're a definate underdog.
Say I'm in late position with no cards and not much in chips, all I have going for me is position (scissors). What would I do against an early raiser who seems to have nothing but cards (paper)? Do I attack him since I have position (scissors cut paper) or do I fold to an early raiser? Seems to me that if he is raising from early position he must have a good hand and I'm just setting myself up to lose a lot of chips....no?

Sam

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01-04-2013 , 07:07 AM

#13

Cpt.Hero

adept

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,020

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyler22

When you are in Push or Fold mode having position is not important anymore. The only important thing is Foldequity if you shove or Equity of your Hand against the Range of your opponent if you call a shove. Having Position is only important if you can play several streets postflop.

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01-04-2013 , 08:21 PM

#14

tyler22

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 294

Good point....I totally forgot what happens when you're that short stacked. Rock - paper - scissors don't matter too much anymore. Just roll up your sleeves and pick your spot to push.

Sam

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01-04-2013 , 09:41 PM

#15

rivercitybirdie

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,726

good thread...

i do think if you putmup a decent amount of $ to play a longer tourney then you really have to be thinking of ways to grab more chips when stacks are still fairly deep.

i think playing under 20 BB if very well explained in HOH but youmhave to think of ways to pick up more chips earlier (bluffing etc.)

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01-06-2013 , 09:14 PM

#16

tyler22

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 294

Thanks for all of your responses.....everyone has definately given me plenty to think about.

Sam

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